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A Q&A with Zillow CEO Rich Barton

Following up on this evening's announcement that Seattle-based Zillow.com has raised an additional $30 million in venture capital, here's a large portion of the interview that I conducted with the company's chief executive, Rich Barton, earlier today.

  • Why did you need to raise more money?

    "We want to increase our investments in both products and growing out the ad sales organization. We didn't run out of money, we still have the majority of the money from the last round, but we do believe that we are going to need more capital before we get profitable."

  • Why now?

    Picture
    Zillow's Rich Barton

    "We didn't necessarily need the money right now. But we do believe that we are going to need additional capital before we get profitable and we have had lots of interest in investing in Zillow. I think that's because people are excited by the opportunity we are going after, which is very different from what other companies -- who I think you think of as competitive with us -- are going after. We are in a different business. We are a database of all homes that is turning into a very interesting home and home related marketing platform. It is not just people looking up what is for sale. Pretty much every other site -- in what you think of in the real estate category -- that is what they are doing. We are a pretty different animal."

  • How are you different?

    "We are paddling into what I call a great big blue ocean.... We are so emotional about our homes and they are so financially important and we spend so much time and money on these things, that Zillow wants to be the prime resource or the go to place where people go to get questions answered and to share stories and to get smarter."

  • Do you see Zillow being worth $800 million (10 times the invested capital) in the near term based on how much traffic you are driving?

    "We are kind of pioneering a new category here and we are filling a tremendous brand vacuum, is what we are attempting to do. In 18 months time, we have become – not a household brand – that is a stretch – but close. Real estate and home-related information and community is a gigantic category that is going to support a very valuable company in my opinion and that is the same opinion that lots of investors have that are putting money into us. I think it is a big opportunity When we sold Expedia it was sold at about a $10 billion valuation and I tell you personally, long-term I am more excited about the opportunity for Zillow than I was for Expedia. It is a bigger business."

  • Zillow will have more than a $10 billion valuation?

    "Look, I think long-term this thing has immense potential. Near-term – you know – it is silly to talk about the near-term I think. All I care about is the long-term."

  • Will you need to raise any more capital?

    "We hope not. This ought to give us enough resources and reserves to fuel us through profitability, but you know things change and it is a dynamic market. We certainly think there could be circumstances where we could raise more money and one day if we were to IPO, we would obviously be raising more money in an IPO."

  • When could that occur?

    "I think a lot of people look at startup companies and they think the IPO is the goal. That is not our goal. Our goal is to build a huge, meaningful brand for the long term here. An IPO may very well be a step along the way, mainly because we are more of a classic startup where everybody owns equity in the company and when compensation comes in the form – at least partly in the form of equity – that means we are all kind of pulling on the oars together to at some point have a liquid market for that security. It is not a goal in and of itself, but it certainly could be an important step along the way to creating a great long-term brand."

  • You have a little more than $40 million in the bank, so how far will that take you?

    "As I said before, I hope that we are not going to have to raise anymore money. I am hoping that this is something that gets us to the break even point."

  • When will that occur?

    "It is really dynamic. This money gives ... us lots of strategic flexibility and by that I mean we can decide to invest big in something new or not invest in something new. It gives us the flexibility and what we do from an investment perspective obviously dictates when we are profitable. The other side of that is, is how revenue develops and we are very early days still. A year ago when we raised our last round, we had maybe two ad sales people and now we have 20 in five different cities. We have made lots of progress."

  • How are revenues going?

    "I am really pleased. We have really just begun to focus on it in the last year and step one is build the team and we have hired an incredible guy to run the sales force – a guy named Greg Schwartz who has a history at Yahoo, Time Warner and DoubleClick and he has built an incredible sales force that is gaining great traction on the national account site. I am just as excited by the local advertising opportunity. We figure there are $60 to $70 billion spent in advertising to home owners on home related things in the country and most of those dollars are spent locally'. We have had over 6,000 advertisers for this local EZ Ads product which is this self-service product that Realtors or plumbers or mortgage brokers can use. It is going really well, we are not talking about specific numbers but I am very encouraged."

  • Will you have more than $5 million in revenue this?

    "We are not talking specifically about revenues, it's a luxury of being a private company that I can answer that question that way. I have intimate knowledge and experience with the joys and pains or running a public company and having to answer that question, but right now we are private."

  • What percentage of ad inventory is already sold on the site?

    "That is something else that we are not talking about publicly, but if you look at the site you can see that we have a nice stable of branded advertisers and especially if you look in Seattle, we are doing pretty well on the EZ Ad side and you will be able to see a lot of local EZ Ads as you shop around in Seattle. These are good advertisers, premium advertisers and you know there are not too many and there are not too few, generally speaking. We think we are doing pretty well."

  • How many for sale listings do you have on the site?

    "Right now, for sale is 208,000 and Make Me Move is 80,000. That is what is live on the site right now, so it is approaching 300,000 listings."

  • Is that a goal of yours to get more listings on the site?

    "Absolutely."

  • How are you going to do that?

    "We are doing it in a two pronged way. The first thing we did was enable any user as we have done right now to post a home for sale – be that person an agent or a homeowner'. It is all kind of user generated today. We have had lots of brokers coming and asking us if we could have a more automated way for the brokerages to put up lots of listings at a time and so we are working on a product that is a structured feed where a broker can feed us listings."

  • Like a Windermere central office could send all of their listings?

    "If they wanted to, they could go through this structured feed program and feed all of their listings right to us and we will put them up. That is not live yet, but you will see that by the end of the year. Listings are a very important part of the process, but they are not what we do. They are not the sole thing that we do."

  • But if people come to a real estate site, they are going to want to know what homes are for sale in their neighborhood?

    "They do, but 4.4 million people came to Zillow last month and most of them not to see what is for sale. People are already coming to Zillow. It is a matter of whether or not brokerages and agents want to get some free advertising to those people while they are there."

  • Do you have any deals with real estate companies to start populating the site with listings?

    "We do. Obviously none of them are live yet because we have not released the product, but we are signing up brokerages very rapidly right now."

  • Who are they, big names or smaller time players?

    "We are not talking about the specifics yet."

  • On continued expansion:

    "The growth we have had in the last year – my guess is that it is probably close to 80 percent people growth in the past year – we are not going to continue that pace of growth of people. We are going to grow modestly from here."

  • But you have actually raised more money for growth?

    "We have a bigger expense base now because there are a lot more people. We are going to pay those people, and hire some more and pay them. That is the biggest use of the funds right there. And we love that we have the strategic flexibility to do that for a long time."

  • Back on the financing, you said you didn't need the money but were you out actually raising capital?

    "No. It has been fairly continuous since we launched that we have had lots of people expressing interest with different levels of intensity in investing in Zillow. Once we decided that the interest level was high enough, we ought to think about raising some money, we ran a little process internally here to go and talk to several potential investors and so a little of both. But we are incredibly pleased. I don't know how familiar you are with Legg Mason but it is a very storied investor, especially from an investment in Internet companies and Internet media companies. And so we are really pleased to have Legg Mason involved."

  • Were there multiple term sheets?

    "I don't want to get specific about that, but we had lots of interest in the financing and I will say that it was obviously an up round if that means anything to you. It was an increase in valuation from the last round, significantly. We are very pleased and I am flattered that the investors see the same immense opportunity that we see to pioneer this new category. There just wants to be a great big brand in this space here and we are very well positioned against it."

  • Aren't you a Web 2.0 odd ball raising this much money, aren't you more like a Web 1.0 company?

    "I don't know what the hell Web 2.0 means really."

  • In terms of how businesses are built, Web 2.0 to me means that you build something very cheap with two or three engineers, you test it, you try to build it through a grass roots marketing campaign and then if it is successful, then you sell out. Like Flickr is a good example?

    "That is completely anathema to me. It is completely anathema – this kind of 'get in on nothing and do a quick flip and sell out.' I hate that. That is ridiculous. People aren't trying to create long-term brands and long-term value. That is like house flippers. And by the way, you generally get out what you put in. We are not creating a feature here, we are creating a business for the long-term that is going to be a brand that my grand kids know. I am not clever enough or short-term thinking enough to do what these other guys are doing and for everyone of these little features that breaks out and is successful – and there have been a handful of them – there are 1,000 that die that no one talks about. That is not what we are about, you know. Big opportunities, command big investments. If by Web 2.0, that's what you mean than don't categorize us that way."

  • There is a mindset that the way you build the business is different these days and how you test it and get it out there. I am not saying one way is better than the other, but in a lot of ways you are more closely tied to the model of how companies were built in the late 90s?

    "It is a little different. We didn't raise big money until we had millions and millions of traffic... The distinction is that we are not creating a feature, we are creating a business. Without trying to sound grand, I think we are pioneering a new category."

  • On the first generation of Internet companies and how they wasted money on trying to attract users through advertising:

    "(Money) went from Kleiner Perkins' pocket to AOL's pocket via a startup."

  • On the scale of Zillow:

    "It is just a matter of what kind of investment is necessary to create what it is you have in mind. I think that we think is probably significantly bigger and longer term than the way most companies are thinking. I am a very patient guy and the team we have put together here has already built one of the biggest brands on the Web. It is in our bones. That is what we like to do. We are looking way out. We not looking short term and we are not looking to do something that somebody else has already done and just build a different mouse trap and put a different UI on a site that has been around for awhile. That is not what we are doing here."

  • What is the status of the mortgage product?

    "We said we were working on a mortgage product four months ago or whenever Lloyd said it. We continue to work on a mortgage product. We think that one of the things that this money raise allows us to do is to look more broadly and say, alright, where else can we bring Zillow like transparency and control and power to consumers in and around their homes. The mortgage industry as it is playing out very publicly right now, feels like an industry that could use a good dose of transparency and consumer empowerment."

  • So how do you do that?

    "We are working on it. We don't have anything imminent. I wish we hadn't said anything four months ago, but we did and we are working on stuff'. I am not saying we are going to ship anything by the end of the year, but we are working on a logical Zillow-like project around financing."

  • What does the housing slump mean to Zillow? Did you raise money because of it?

    "What is going on in the housing market wasn't part of the decision to raise money. It is a debate internally on is a buyer's market good or bad for Zillow. I think there is a pretty good argument to say that in a buyer's market people want to spend more time researching. From an advertiser perspective, we haven't seen anything yet.

    I certainly think that the mortgage business is doing lower volumes so they are probably spending a bit less. Our advertisers come from a broad cross section of industries that all kind of surround the home – it is effectively an infinite amount of money there advertising these businesses. Not just real estate and mortgages and titles and these things, but insurance and telecommunications and home electronics and home improvement.

    These businesses are gigantic and the amount of advertising dollars being spent on these businesses is huge. Even if there is somewhat of an overall contraction in the overall spending of those industries, I think there is an acceleration of those dollars moving from offline to online. Almost regardless of what happens, we see a – I don't know if I would call it a tidal wave – but certainly a tidal shift of dollars from offline expenditures to online expenditures and we are going to be the beneficiaries of that."

  • On the future of Zillow:

    "Ultimately, we want to be kind of the virtual town square. And a good chunk of what people talk about when they talk about their homes in the town square, is what is on the market and what did that go for and who is doing a home improvement and why is that truck on the road and that kind of stuff. A lot of it is what contractor did you use and what was your experience like and where did you get furniture and should I paint my house yellow, pink or blue. That kind of stuff. All of those conversations and decisions that are being made offline, we are striving to bring that online and bring that into Zillow. We think that everyone can benefit from a more perfect marketplace for that information flow. That is what we are working on doing. It's grand. It's a grand plan and ... we see lots of little harbingers that it is working...."

  • Are you still confident that you can build a substantial business around advertising without getting involved in the real estate transaction?

    "Very confident. Very confident. The volume of advertising dollars that are going after these people as they have these conversations around spending money, it is effectively infinite. It is so huge. It is the biggest advertising category."

  • Posted by at September 19, 2007 9:03 p.m.
    Categories: ,
    Comments
    #53218

    Posted by JonWashburn at 9/19/07 11:43 p.m.

    John and Rich, fantastic interview! Very interesting information. Your discussion regarding web 2.0 and building a legacy business was especially inspiring. Rich, congratulations on your recent funding, I am sure you and your team will continue to work wonders with it.

    #53231

    Posted by unregistered user at 9/20/07 6:38 a.m.

    Very cagey in comments about revenue, ad sales, etc.

    Classic case where the reasoned reader sees "DANGER! DANGER!"

    Not only is their core market (real estate) in a world of hurt, their losses probably dwarf even most liberal estimates.

    #53257

    Posted by unregistered user at 9/20/07 9:24 a.m.

    John, Thanks for this great interview. What does this mean for local startup Alphabet Lane? They are just starting a 'social networking' site for DIY enthusiasts and remodelers. They were at ESIF this year. Seems to me that they just got some competition.

    #53261

    Posted by unregistered user at 9/20/07 9:28 a.m.

    Their cash losses are pretty easy to figure out. They raised $57 million about 18 months ago, and apparently have a little more than half of it left. Let's say $30 million is left. So they burned through about $27 million (plus their own seed capital), let's call it about $29 million, in about 18 months. That's an annual burn in the range of $15-20 million, somewhere in the range of $1-2 million burn each month. Which would suggest they got about 30 months of funding just now. Of course, all of these are static estimates, but show the order of magnitude.

    #53275

    Posted by John Cook at 9/20/07 10:22 a.m.

    Thanks for the comments.

    As to Alphabet Lane, you are absolutely correct that Zillow is moving onto their turf. I actually mentioned that in a post on ESIF back in April which I started this way:

    "As I watched the presentation of Alphabet Lane -- a Seattle startup that is attempting to be a one stop shop for home remodeling information and planning tools -- I kept thinking of Zillow.com and how the heavily-funded Seattle company will most likely move in this direction."

    Also, interesting analysis on the burn rate. I was going to ask Barton directly what the burn rate was, but I was pretty sure that was going to end in a "no comment."

    I think it is safe to say that they are probably burning through more cash than any other Web 2.0 startup in Seattle.

    John Cook

    #53283

    Posted by unregistered user at 9/20/07 10:50 a.m.

    Jm J is back! Who paid for the scones this time, John? I don't want to get into the amusing issue of getting too close to a subject again, but make certain to keep all receipts. If we have to be subjected to yet more in the near future go after Vanessa Fox next time who is far more entertaining and less apt to repeat phrases, phrases over and over.

    "That is completely anathema to me. It is completely anathema – this kind of 'get in on nothing and do a quick flip and sell out.'

    Sounds a lot like the type of thing his buddy at the readily-sued Avvo is attempting to do.

    "Right now, for sale is 208,000 and Make Me Move is 80,000."

    And 79.9K of those "MMM" listings have more comical value than OJ's Chicken Man shadow. An 800K dislodgment price for a Covington doublewide with a porch doesn't exactly qualify as a listing. Their postings as a whole really do suck and they are going to have to put together a team that can line up the vipers. The crew they have in place now won't get it done thus that 30M is going to get sliced by 1/3 rapidly with the new W2's.

    "We didn't necessarily need the money right now."

    Always one of my favorites. Indeed, right up there with "I'm leaving to spend more time with my family."

    "a guy named Greg Schwartz"

    With things going so well Barton could have presumably at least hired someone who will run things out of Seattle. New Yawk Citah? Hammy College was once cited as the "Most Preppy" joint in the US and even oblique BAT associations play sideways in Mistland.

    As always...
    Bravo, Barton

    #53296

    Posted by unregistered user at 9/20/07 11:20 a.m.

    I think a virtual town square is a really bad idea. The whole idea of going to a town square is to be with other people. To see and be seen, interact with people in multiple ways, in the flesh. Plus, your physical town square, by definition, is close enough that you can go there pretty easily. Why move it online? Any attempt to move it online, thus limiting the range of experiences and the possibility of unexpected / unintended interactions will be bad in the long run.

    #53310

    Posted by unregistered user at 9/20/07 12:20 p.m.

    That cash flow analysis is definitely low - it assumes static employee numbers the entire time. Figure they had less than half their current employees for the first half of their public existence and you can probably add 50% to the current burn rate.

    #53315

    Posted by unregistered user at 9/20/07 12:36 p.m.

    Barton said in the interview (http://thebrowser.blogs.fortune.com/2007/09/20/zillow-raises-another-30-million-from-legg-mason/)"

    "We're not a real estate site like a lot of the others–just a list of listings. We're a database of all homes. What can you do with that, Something big is going to happen in this new category that we're pioneering. If we get it right, this is going to be big. And if we don't, somebody else will."

    The money can solve lots problem only you can do it right...otherwise more problem w/ the money. HouseValues probably has $70M cash....but the company is falling apart....why ?the leadership.

    #53321

    Posted by unregistered user at 9/20/07 12:53 p.m.

    "That cash flow analysis is definitely low - it assumes static employee numbers the entire time. Figure they had less than half their current employees for the first half of their public existence and you can probably add 50% to the current burn rate."

    Fair enough -- I said as much by saying it was static. But it's also static on the revenue side too, and they did recently let a couple dozen people go. So I left it a wash. But it's in the ballpark of $1-2 million/mo, I'm guessing.

    btw, john, these captchas are too hard for even humans to decipher sometimes! like the child-proof lid on a vitamin bottle that's actually adult-proof too :-o

    #53322

    Posted by unregistered user at 9/20/07 12:56 p.m.

    it'd be difficult to do, but i sure would like to see a "Dollars to Seattle Web 2.0" ranking of the monthly sampasite data. That'd be an interesting one.

    #53446

    Posted by unregistered user at 9/20/07 10:58 p.m.

    I knew it wouldn't be long before the haters came out of the woodwork. I bet that 99%% of you schmucks would kill to have even 1/100th of Barton's net worth, cause then you could buy some class.

    Go back to your moms-garage-startups and your Office Space jobs!

    #53521

    Posted by unregistered user at 9/21/07 9:50 a.m.

    hehe

    #55797

    Posted by unregistered user at 10/3/07 9:26 p.m.

    I'm amazed what propertyshark has done without taking venture capital.

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