Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 11:17 a.m.

Get Rid of CM, get rid of violent cagers...they are two sides to the same coin and both groups are the absolute scum of their respective groups.

CM, you are a disservice to the cause you purport to support. Really you just want to be selfish and go cause some trouble once a month, I for one don't welcome you into the bike community.

Posted by JeffInFremont at 7/29/08 11:23 a.m.

CM has dug their own grave. An incident this public is only going to encourage all of those who are looking for trouble to try and intercede in the next CM ride.

We'll see what happens when a bunch of overzealous CM's try to cork a car full of gun-toting gang bangers.

Of course, this is what it will take for any real action to happen. Sadly, most people don't step back and look at the big picture until people start dying.

Posted by nwcitizen at 7/29/08 11:28 a.m.

Should Critical Mass rides end? Absolutely not.

However, the emphasis needs to return to celebration of a mode of transportation that is earth friendly, people friendly, and educational.

Violence solves nothing.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 11:30 a.m.

I have been a bike commuter for 16 years now, CM is not doing the biking community any service. We need to let drivers know what to expect when they encounter bikes, this is the only way we will reduce tensions. This means following traffic laws, saying thank you when people yield and at stop lights stay back if a car was curious when they passed you. Do not bump up to the start of the line when someone just waited and gave you a lot of space to maneuver when the passed you last time. As a community we need to learn how to share the road with cars vs. escalating the violence.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 11:30 a.m.

I think the message the bike community wanted to send was lost via the incident. The CM model is not an effective way to build cooperation. Seattle roads are narrow and crowded; sharing with bikes can be challenging. Bikers need to understand the physics of bike v. car. Cars need to slow down and give bikes room. People need to be patient. Everyone needs to follow all traffic regulations and other laws. I personally wish that more bikers would use proper hand signals.

Posted by JustRoss at 7/29/08 11:42 a.m.

Protest groups like CM create their own fatal paradox. Their goal is to "raise awareness," in this case of bike riders on local roadways. Early on in the life of such an organization, it's mere presence raises awareness. Several hundred bikers making their way through town draws attention, news cameras, reporters, etc. and people can't help but take notice.

However, once it's been around for a while, people stop caring. Articles aren't written, the media doesn't show up, and passerby simply say "there goes those jerks on bikes messing up my afternoon."

This passe anonymity, of course, frustrates the protesters efforts to "raise awareness." In order attract more attention and get people talking about them again, something different has to happen on one of their rides.

Escalation is required in order to meet their goal, but such escalation risks fundamentally alienating those they are trying to reach.

Posted by DangerNut at 7/29/08 11:46 a.m.

Detaining people against their will is not only illegal, it creates absolutely no sympathy for the word they are trying to spread. Their own actions will cause the opposite effect of what they had hoped to accomplish.

I know I'm looking forward to driving around town on the last Friday of next month hoping I get "corked".

Posted by Monica Guzman at 7/29/08 12:02 p.m.

JustRoss: That's a great observation. Once a protest becomes a ritual, it loses its news interest - until something else happens to put it back in the headlines. Still, Critical Massers might say the monthly reminder, though routine, is still valuable - reminding people that bikes are out there and in need of respect.

Posted by tuddo at 7/29/08 12:10 p.m.

Critical Mass rides don't necessarily have to stop, just the anarchy associated with them. Planned routes announced in advance with alternative routes for emergency vehicles and motorists with police protection for the cyclists might encourage even more cyclists to enjoy a mass ride. Illegal detention of motorists and pedestrians by "corking", ignoring traffic signals without police protection and the frequent verbal abuse against innocent bystanders is not a way to get the message across that all users, motorists, pedestrians and cyclists, should share our roadways in a manner respectful of each other's rights.

If CM is only about anarchy, then the police need to take stronger action against any riders breaking the law and blocking other traffic.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 12:13 p.m.

CM has been verbally & violently confronting motor vehicles for quite some time now. Best intentions are always ruined by those who scream, "It's my right" while ignoring the rights of others. But, hey...they are the majority on the street when they ride, so they must be correct if inside seattle city's limits.

Now if I can just get the police to ignore me when I commit infractions like CM does on almost every ride (they've never seen a stop light not worth running).

They're just lucky the driver didn't defend himself with a gun....

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 12:19 p.m.

Cancel Critical Mass because somebody got their car broken? Fine. Just cancel all car travel the next time some driver hits a pedestrian or a cyclist. That would be fair. Heck, I wouldn't even mind a mandatory license suspension should a driver get into any kind of crash. That would motivate people and be in line with some of the crazy things this list has put forward.

Keep in mind, the driver of the Subaru hit first, ran over a real, live person, and then tried to drive away before he was forced to stop by witnesses. That's a felony, and he started it.

Keep in mind also the difference had this driver hit the middle of a funeral procession or a parade or march. No one would blame any of those people, only the cyclists. Remember that.

Posted by Goretex guy at 7/29/08 12:23 p.m.

Sticking your thumb in someone's eye may remind them that you're there, but at what price? I read all the feedback on articles in both Seattle newspapers and what comes through is that most people think that cyclists are scofflaws and jerks who don't want to follow the law, but want you to. I was the cycling coordinator for my building a few years ago (I was a cycle commuter at the time) and most of my non-cycling friends always asked me "why don't cyclists obey the law?" If cyclists would really stop at stop signs, not blow red lights, and behave like the vehicles they say they are we'd have a lot fewer problems.

Posted by stupid.jerk.cyclist at 7/29/08 12:26 p.m.

I know I'm more sympathetic to cyclists than most because I ride a bike a lot, but for some strange reason people seem to completely lose perspective when bicycles are involved. I've been driving downtown when Critical Mass rode through & "corked" the intersection I was waiting at. It took a couple of minutes for all of them to ride by.

It slowed me down, however the delay that they caused me was no more (often significantly less) than the delays I've experienced in traffic due to: cars crashing into each other & backing up traffic for miles on the interstate, busses breaking down in the middle of an intersection, highway construction projects, the President of the USA's stupid motorcade, and the huge backups that happen regularly when 100000 cars attempt to use a road that was built for 50000 cars.

Traffic sucks for a whole lot of reasons. At least Critical Mass offers a colorful & entertaining parade of humanity. When I was corked, I waved at them & honked my horn. Passing cyclists yelled joyfully. Nobody threatened me.

I'd be willing to bet that the dude who got beat up started off by getting angry at the cyclists...then a few angry cyclists decided to show him who's boss...then beat up dude decided to prove that the man with a car is boss...then the angry cyclists decided to prove that cars aren't as mighty as one might think. Everybody involved in the incident is an idiot, but I don't think any of them deserved to get hurt. Realistically, if beat up dude just sat in his car for two minutes, the bikes would have passed and none of this would have happened. If angry cyclists just ignored beat up dude instead of escalating and challenging his anger, beat up dude would have been angry for a few minutes & then be completely over it shortly after that.

I think Critical Mass still has a place in the world, but people involved in the rides need to do a better job of policing themselves. I think corking can still be a part of the rides, but they need to have more people involved who will seek to resolve conflicts rather than escalate them. It's tough to control the situation however, when you are an anarchist group that will inevitably attract at least a few people with chips on their shoulders.

Posted by JudyBuddy at 7/29/08 12:28 p.m.

Regulate Critical Mass like any other parade/civil demonstration with required permits, defined routes and police in attendance. Why aren't these things required now? Why are the police told to "look the other way" when these riders tie up traffic, block intersections and inconvenience other users of the road who, unlike cyclists, get to pay for the privilege of using the streets through license tab fees? Make CM and cyclists in general accountable for their actions and activities. If they want to use the streets, make them obtain and pay for a license plate. At least then the thugs among them would not be able to ride down streets and sidewalks with the anonymity they currently enjoy (hence the on-going search for the cyclist who used his bike lock as a weapon in order to "raise the driver's awareness").

Posted by southender at 7/29/08 12:30 p.m.

I've been a bike commuter on and off for over two decades. Critical Mass has done nothing to help raise public awareness about the challenges bike commuters face.

As a cyclist, when I see some idiot on a bike playing chicken in traffic to prove a point, it's not that he's a cyclist, it's that he's an idiot. Now put a few hundred of them together in the same place at the same time: there may be safety in numbers, but they're still a bunch of idiots.

Critical Mass isn't about making the roads safe - they've lost their point.

Posted by gyngve at 7/29/08 12:32 p.m.

The incident Friday night reflects poorly on all of us. We've become a society that is doing too many things at once, always hurried, ever impatient. We've become aggressive and selfish, not caring to think about what it would be like in the other person's shoes. Everyone involved needed to step back and count to ten, take a deep breath, and smell the cliched roses.

Critical Mass or not, bicyclist vs car or not, unless people mellow out, this will happen again.

Posted by Trauma_Hound at 7/29/08 12:33 p.m.

Cancel Critical Mass because somebody got their car broken? Fine. Just cancel all car travel the next time some driver hits a pedestrian or a cyclist. That would be fair. Heck, I wouldn't even mind a mandatory license suspension should a driver get into any kind of crash. That would motivate people and be in line with some of the crazy things this list has put forward.

Keep in mind, the driver of the Subaru hit first, ran over a real, live person, and then tried to drive away before he was forced to stop by witnesses. That's a felony, and he started it.

Keep in mind also the difference had this driver hit the middle of a funeral procession or a parade or march. No one would blame any of those people, only the cyclists. Remember that.

No moron, CM hit first by violating the subaru owners right to freely move about. And that's what you idiots don't get. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO UNLAWFULLY DETAIN PEOPLE. Be it cars or pedestrians. Tom Braun must be the worst attorney in Seattle if he can't understand that concept.

Posted by dkellogg at 7/29/08 12:36 p.m.

As the old saying goes, there are two sides to every story, BUT:

I no longer have a rather benign opinion of Critical Mass. I thought when they had a police altercation a couple of years ago downtown that it was stupid, but maybe it was due to over aggressive policing. Given this donnybrook, I'd have to say the public relations battle is being lost by Critical Mass. Which is sad since they are trying to promote bike safety but mayhem seems to follow them around, subsequently the message is lost.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 12:38 p.m.

The driectors of Cascade Bicycle Club should review the Patriot Act and State Gang Laws concerning organizations and their liability

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 12:38 p.m.

Just to clarify:

People talk about what the CM organization should do and shouldn't do, and say that CM made a huge mistake, etc.

Critical Mass, to my understanding, is a time and place to show up on a bike and ride. There's no hierarchy that I'm aware of, nobody "in charge" of the "demonstration".

A few individual CM riders reacted aggressively to an aggressive driver (who hit several riders with his car). That shouldn't surprise anybody; imagine a driver plowing into guests at an outdoor wedding or a bunch of revelers after the bars close. What's impressive is that the driver wasn't injured severely.

I doubt that CM is going to go away. But as the exploding middle class in China and India buy cars and gasoline, lots of cars in America WILL go away.

Learn to love the bicycle and get the infrastructure in place for safe, convenient bicycle commuting; it will be of benefit to everyone.

Posted by mabelicious at 7/29/08 12:52 p.m.

"imagine a driver plowing into guests at an outdoor wedding or a bunch of revelers after the bars close."

That's ridiculous. He didn't plow into innocent bicycle revelers. While his car was at a stop, cyclists surrounded his car, pounding on it and rocking it. He jolted the car forward and struck some of them. They beat the crap out of him.

He wasn't blithely zipping along and swerving into people gathered off to the side of his path. He tried to free himself from unlawful detainment the only way he could think of. Stupid? Yes. Dangerous? Yes. But did he start it? No. The cyclists who had him trapped and were scaring and threatening him for jollies did. It's like a bunch of nasty kids standing around a dog, jabbing it with sticks, then crying to mommy and having the dog put down when it snaps and bites one of them.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 12:52 p.m.

I see this discussion has devolved to name-calling. "moron"? Really?

That aside ... there's no doubt that the Critical Mass riders are breaking the law, ignoring stop signs and signals, riding on the wrong side of the street. The point is that we don't live in a society that allows vigilate justice. No matter how annoying or illegal someone's behavior may be, noone has the right to hit them with a car.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 12:59 p.m.

I am as green as they come on multi-modal transportation issues (and work in the field). But I can't totally get behind the biking community until they stop treating pedestrians the way bicyclists complain they get treated by cars.
Bicyclists pick and choose the rules of the road to accommodate their movement--on sidewalks, on roads, not obeying traffic signs, not yielding to walkers, etc.
If a group of pedestrians regularly blocked the path of cyclists to educate them on pedestrian issues, I don't think there would be the same sentiment from the bicycling community.
I lived in one of the most bikeable cities in the world and there was an expectation on the part of all drivers and cyclists on how to share the road. It can be done but it's on the part of everyone to do so.

Posted by MinusTwenty at 7/29/08 1:02 p.m.

It would be a shame for peoples' right to assemble be abridged because an auto driver decided to commit multiple counts of vehicular assault against a (problematic) assembly going by.

Posted by JustRoss at 7/29/08 1:04 p.m.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 12:38 p.m.

Just to clarify:

People talk about what the CM organization should do and shouldn't do, and say that CM made a huge mistake, etc.

Critical Mass, to my understanding, is a time and place to show up on a bike and ride. There's no hierarchy that I'm aware of, nobody "in charge" of the "demonstration".

Somebody sets the time & place. Somebody maintains the website and the email listserv that notifies members. Somebody rides at the front of giving some kind of direction or route for the ride. Somebody has talked with other riders about how to "cork" traffic. The lack of a formal heirarchy does not absolve them of their legal liabilities and duties. It's a little disengenous to argue that anarchic nature of the organization absolves all involved individuals of any responsiblity for acts of the "mob."

Posted by MinusTwenty at 7/29/08 1:04 p.m.

People continue to act here as if the violence was the fault of the cyclists.

I repeat: it is never just "O.K." to commit vehicular assault because some people are delaying you from your dinner reservations. It was a miracle this hot-headed road rage case didn't kill someone. And it was certainly not the fault of cyclists surrounding his car that he decided to ram them with his car as they stood there.

I repeat again: it is never just "O.K." to commit vehicular assault.

Posted by DFC at 7/29/08 1:09 p.m.

Should Critical Mass protests end? NO!
Critical Mass protests are intended to assert space for bicyclists on our streets. I think they are great in that regard!

Do I think they would benefit from some changes? Yes!
The Critical Mass member's letter posted yesterday as part of a Seattle 911 entry outlined a bunch of tactics that I consider unnecessarily confrontational, hostile and aggressive. I consider those tactics problematic enough that even though I completely support biker solidarity if I were a biker I would avoid CM protests because of them. One major problem with the tactics as practiced in the recent protest is that it got several CM riders substantial injuries.
There would also be the matter of what happened to the car driver, something I absolutely think could have been avoided with better observance of nonviolent principles and better communication. The driver was decent enough to pbulicly mention mistakes. I am still waiting to run across someone from CM willing to acknowledge that the situation for the people int eh car was probably absolutely terrifying.

That said, consider all the benefits of the current discussion:

--Publicity about the number of bicyclists who get hurt with no recourse.

--Publicity about the problems with the designation fo E Aloha St as a cross-town commute route.

--Publicity in the form of people frothing at the mouth in Soundoffs claiming bicyclists have no right to share the road. These folks need to READ THEIR DRIVERS'MANUAL.

--Publicity about scary issues such as the issue of riding to the right and what happens at Right turns. More critical Mass protests will not solve this problem but there is a place for having fun while raising awareness.

--Publicity about the irresponsible behaviors of some bicyclists. This is beneficial because it creates the opportunity to identify problems and to distinguish among behaviors rather than lumping all bicyclists in one category.

--As a visually-impaired pedestrian, I nearly always find the thought of bicyclists on sidewalks terrifying, but I consider it essentail to continue conversations and to try to resolve anything standing in the way of sharing space reasonable.

Last weekend's protest certainly generated bad media, but some of that can be attributed to reporters failing to get the whole story. Those events also brought out lots of other stories about Critical Mass events that do not go well such as the incident where bikers rode through the International fountain without regard to the safety of small children. It's clear some people hate Critical Mass.

It is not clear to me that makes their protests ineffective.

In short, a lot of good has come from these events already.

Posted by Soccer.Guy at 7/29/08 1:12 p.m.

People continue to act here as if the violence was the fault of the cyclists.

Because the facts seem to indicate the cyclists were at least PARTIALLY responsible for the injuries that happened.

I repeat again: it is never just "O.K." to commit vehicular assault.

Strictly speaking, that is true. However, in certain circumstances a driver will be excused from liability. The question is, was that scenario present here.

Posted by kingmob at 7/29/08 1:12 p.m.

Keep your toy off the road. Go play in your driveway.

Posted by Trauma_Hound at 7/29/08 1:14 p.m.

I see this discussion has devolved to name-calling. "moron"? Really?

That aside ... there's no doubt that the Critical Mass riders are breaking the law, ignoring stop signs and signals, riding on the wrong side of the street. The point is that we don't live in a society that allows vigilate justice. No matter how annoying or illegal someone's behavior may be, noone has the right to hit them with a car.

Actually you might want to keep up, if someone fears for their life, they have every right to use deadly force.

Posted by LadyCat at 7/29/08 1:16 p.m.

I think CM should be closed down. I am a bus rider. I have stood waiting for my bus at the end of a tiring day, just wanting to go home, find a heating pad for my aching bones, and relax. They don't just ride through--matter of seconds or even minutes. They held up all traffic on 2nd Avenue by Spring for over half an hour while they laid in the roadway, rode their bikes back and forth across second. I have no respect for them and I have no liking for bicyclists as a result. By the time they were ready to ride on and let traffic through, I was ready to use a machine gun on all of them. And if they truly did this by breaking the law, not getting permits, not getting police riders (or whatever they're called), I'm even angrier.

Posted by gyngve at 7/29/08 1:16 p.m.

My bicycle is a vehicle. I pay sales and property taxes that pay for local roads. It is my right to use the road.

Unfortunately too many drivers treat their cars as toys, listening to deafeningly loud music, yapping on cell phones, reading a paper while driving, etc.

When I ride my bike, I have two hands on the handlebars at all times, except to signal. I wish more drivers would do the same.

Posted by JustRoss at 7/29/08 1:19 p.m.

Posted by MinusTwenty at 7/29/08 1:04 p.m.

I repeat again: it is never just "O.K." to commit vehicular assault.

So if you're driving along and come up to some marching group of people with, say, shaved heads, they single out and surround your car, and start cussing at you, and refuse let you pass, you wouldn't feel justified in knocking a few down to make an escape? Wouldn't some level of threat justify some use of force to protect yourself?

And it was certainly not the fault of cyclists surrounding his car that he decided to ram them with his car as they stood there.

Actually, it was exactly their faults. They could have stood anywhere they wanted to. They could have cycled passed him in the lane designated for traffic going in the direction the group was going in. As many cyclists like to point out, they are also legally entitled to use the sidewalk for their travel. Instead, they chose to unlawfully detain and harrass a random person for having the audacity to operate a legal vehicle in a legal street that they happened to be illegally riding up. It's as much their fault as if they rode south on the northbound lanes of I-5.

Capitol Hill is not Tianemen Square, Tom Braun is not some Chinese student, and a Subaru is not a tank.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 1:21 p.m.

Minus-
Are you serious, or just a Troll?!

The driver was TRAPPED by the cyclists who were participating in ILLEGAL activity!

Have you not heard of fight or flight response?

The violence WAS teh fault of teh cyclists as THEY were the ones exhibiting the viloent behavior! There is NO EXCUSE for their actions!

Posted by Trauma_Hound at 7/29/08 1:23 p.m.

Posted by MinusTwenty at 7/29/08 1:04 p.m.

People continue to act here as if the violence was the fault of the cyclists.

I repeat: it is never just "O.K." to commit vehicular assault because some people are delaying you from your dinner reservations. It was a miracle this hot-headed road rage case didn't kill someone. And it was certainly not the fault of cyclists surrounding his car that he decided to ram them with his car as they stood there.

I repeat again: it is never just "O.K." to commit vehicular assault.

You can keep repeating what isn't true, but they started by frightening the guy by surrounding him. The law is on his side. He has a right to protect himself and anyone that's with him. This never would have escalated if CM didn't start by breaking the law.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 1:24 p.m.

As for those who say that he should have just taken the beating, you go watch what happened to Fidel Lopez and Reginald Denny during the LA riots...it was a sad situation all around but if I were being attacked by a mob of thugs I would probably risk the lives of the perps to save my own.

Posted by gyngve at 7/29/08 1:26 p.m.

Unless the entire thing were videotaped, I don't think we'll ever find out who started it. Once it escalated, each side had some reasonable justification for self defense. But it should never have escalated in the first place. That's what we should be focusing on -- having everyone stay chill -- not whether the bikers set off the driver first, or the driver set off the bikers first.

Also, FYI, Cascade Bicycle Club does not endorse Critical Mass and has no connections to Critical Mass. For that matter, Cascade rides have leaders and have rules such as requiring helmets. Some Critical Mass riders think these rules are silly.

Posted by Trauma_Hound at 7/29/08 1:31 p.m.

Posted by gyngve at 7/29/08 1:26 p.m.

Unless the entire thing were videotaped, I don't think we'll ever find out who started it. Once it escalated, each side had some reasonable justification for self defense. But it should never have escalated in the first place. That's what we should be focusing on -- having everyone stay chill -- not whether the bikers set off the driver first, or the driver set off the bikers first.

Also, FYI, Cascade Bicycle Club does not endorse Critical Mass and has no connections to Critical Mass. For that matter, Cascade rides have leaders and have rules such as requiring helmets. Some Critical Mass riders think these rules are silly.

And that is the crux of the critical mass problem, if the law is silly then don't follow it. While everyone else follows it. It's not just a rule to wear a helmet, it's the law in the City of Seattle.

Posted by DangerNut at 7/29/08 1:33 p.m.

MinusTwenty - Why were 2 bicyclists arrested, police were looking for a 3rd? Why was the driver never arrested or charged? Did the SPD make a mistake?

It's because he never committed any type of assult, he only did what many of us would do when surrounded by a group of hooligans, he did what he felt necessary to avoid and escape a threatening situation. As for me, the moment I was surrounded by strangers I would have felt threatened. The first time someone touched me, my passengers or my car I would have taken action and would have been totally within my rights to use whatever force necessary to stop the assult.

My point is this: Someone is going to get hurt very badly or killed long before CM makes any difference in how the general public views the bicycling community, except in a negative, unproductive way.

They are shooting themselves in their own foot with their childish behavior. Hopefully it won't come to someone shooting them in the head to escape their illegal detention of lawful citizens.

Posted by JustRoss at 7/29/08 1:39 p.m.

Posted by gyngve at 7/29/08 1:26 p.m.

That's what we should be focusing on -- having everyone stay chill

We already have a mechanism designed to help everyone "stay chill" while sharing our public roads. It's called "traffic laws." They define the when, why, and how of we are obligated to share our roads, what kind of behavior we can expect from fellow users of those roads, whether they are drivers, bikers, or pedestrians, and what kind of behavior is expected of us while we are sharing those roads, whether we are drivers, bikers, or pedestrians.

Those include things like speed limits, rules for yielding the right of way, rules about what lanes are used for what kinds of traffic (directional, turning lanes, etc.), rules about obstructing traffic, how to respond to certain traffic signals, etc. Generally, when everybody follows those rules and acts in the expected manner, most people stay chill. Most people sit patiently at a red light because it's the law and we expect it to change to green. But if someone blows through a red when you have the green, you're likely to get irrate. If they then stop, block your progress, and lecture you about sharing the road, you'll get more irritated.

The point is, CM acted in a manner one would reasonably expect is designed to cause people to lose their cool. They broke the rules of the system designed to keep people chill, and bear the bulk of the responsbility for what happened.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 1:51 p.m.

It never ceases to amaze me how many Critical Mass experts are out there. Did y'all do you doctoral thesis on Critical Mass?

How can you blindly label everyone riding that evening as "thugs" and "hooligans"? There was at least one child riding with his dad. Is that kid also a "terrorist"?

Why isn't everyone at Safeco field or the Torchlight parade labeled terrorists when fights and arrests take place? Why don't people care that thousands of motorists each day break the law by speeding?

No, people have little interest in learning the facts about Friday or about Critical Mass in general. They read a few sensationalistic news articles, they view a few extreme videos on youtube, and they're ready to type away on forums like this.

Posted by JustRoss at 7/29/08 1:59 p.m.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 1:51 p.m.

How can you blindly label everyone riding that evening as "thugs" and "hooligans"? There was at least one child riding with his dad. Is that kid also a "terrorist"?

OK, so not everyone in CM is willing to crack a guy over the head with a bike lock, and there are varying levels of culpability. But here's the thing--Organizations are frequently, and often correctly, judged by their lowest common denominator. The same CM theory that says "no one is in charge of CM" also means that all the riders bear some responsbility for the actions of the group. Of the father and son pairing, I would say that the father is teaching his kid that if gets together with enough people, the laws don't matter anymore. That's a dangerous principle.

Posted by Trauma_Hound at 7/29/08 2:06 p.m.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 1:51 p.m.

It never ceases to amaze me how many Critical Mass experts are out there. Did y'all do you doctoral thesis on Critical Mass?

How can you blindly label everyone riding that evening as "thugs" and "hooligans"? There was at least one child riding with his dad. Is that kid also a "terrorist"?

Why isn't everyone at Safeco field or the Torchlight parade labeled terrorists when fights and arrests take place? Why don't people care that thousands of motorists each day break the law by speeding?

No, people have little interest in learning the facts about Friday or about Critical Mass in general. They read a few sensationalistic news articles, they view a few extreme videos on youtube, and they're ready to type away on forums like this.

CM has no head. So anyone part of it takes responsibility for it. As for the father, his kid should be taken away from him for being an irresponsible parent. Nice that he's teaching his kid it's OK to break the law. I'll bet he'll appreciate it when he grows up thinking the law doesn't apply to him. I'm an expert in so much as being run down by CM riders in a crosswalk. It won't happen again, because I'm taking a queue from them, and beating the living crap out of the next one that runs into me.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 2:28 p.m.

We have reached...CRITICAL MASS - BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! ...and now they've imploded.

Seems to me that if one is going to protest, one should do it legally. Riding around not following the rule of law such as stop signs and lights leads to problems. HEY JUST LIKE THIS ONE!

Join Cascade and become part of the solution, not the problem.

Posted by seattlelovemonger at 7/29/08 2:36 p.m.

I actually work downtown Seattle bike patrol and an advid cyclist...and every Thursday night I see the hipster messengers and trendy fixies gather at westlake park...and ride of in a group yelping and being agnorant the adolecents they are...and I disagree with who rides the CM event...its not the novice weekend warriors and familys who wear white helmets and dust of ther bikes hanging in thier 2 car garage....NO....its these 20 something trenders...who wear the rolled up ,tight assed jeans...mismatched socks...funky 80's tight shirt...wearing a derby or cycling hat..no helmet...with their..80s steel lugged...brooks saddle...padded toptube.. fixies....with bad attitudes and no respect for for anybody but themselves...those are the people who make it difficult for rest of us...I can handle a novice rider....teach and they learn...its these arrogant Trendy Wendys I can't stand....think that they are better than everyone else....

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 3:11 p.m.

As for the father, his kid should be taken away from him for being an irresponsible parent. Nice that he's teaching his kid it's OK to break the law.

Thanks for proving my point.

Also, just out of curiosity, should all the kids that are in cars being driven over the speed limit be taken away from the parent/driver?

You are make huge assumptions as to the intentions of each and every rider who was involved with the Critical Mass ride that evening. Amazing.

Posted by JustRoss at 7/29/08 3:21 p.m.

It's not about the intentions of each and every rider in the group. It's about the well intentioned riders in the group willingly and voluntarily associating themselves with the thugs and hooligans in the group. It's about all those riders who rode past the corked driver and thought to themselves "thanks for boxing that guy in." It's about all the riders who decided to spread out across all lanes of traffic, taking advantage of the corked space, without regard for traffic laws or the problems their behavior would cause for others.

I'm not advocating yanking kids from parents, but I think it's worth noting that the kid would be far better served and would be a far safer rider if dad, rather than taking him on these critical mass rides, learned the proper rules of the road, learned the importance of traffic signs and signals, and actually how to SHARE THE ROAD.

Posted by Trauma_Hound at 7/29/08 3:26 p.m.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 3:11 p.m.

As for the father, his kid should be taken away from him for being an irresponsible parent. Nice that he's teaching his kid it's OK to break the law.

Thanks for proving my point.

Also, just out of curiosity, should all the kids that are in cars being driven over the speed limit be taken away from the parent/driver?

You are make huge assumptions as to the intentions of each and every rider who was involved with the Critical Mass ride that evening. Amazing.

You try getting run down in a crosswalk by CM and then tell me you don't make assumptions you anonymous chicken.

Posted by JustRoss at 7/29/08 3:28 p.m.

As an aside, I think it's worth noting that not too many weeks ago, nearly 10,000 bicyclists managed to ride all the way from Seattle to Portland, and it was not necessary to cork a single car along the ride. Traffic was managed trained professionals who took responsbility for, and were accountable for, their decisions, and did not hide behind mob mentality. If it was necessary to break up a pack to allow others to cross the road, bikers accepted that as a fact of life and traffic. Traffic flowed in both directions on every stretch of road they travelled.

Sure, it takes a lot more effort, a lot more planning, and lot more maturity, than simply saying "dude, show up with your bike downtown on friday and we'll stick to the man." But I garuntee you more people look at reports of the STP and say "maybe I should ride a bike" then look at CM and think the same thing.

Posted by pnw_democrat at 7/29/08 3:35 p.m.

Critical Mass should stay, but the CM riders should never attack anyone. CM highlights bikes as a presence on city streets and raises awareness, which is a good thing. Adding to the violence in this city is definitely a bad thing. Some minor civil disobedience pointing out that our society is overly biased towards cars is a great thing.

I think corking is fine as the CM group moves through an intersection because it maintains a buffer around the riders. But CM corkers should smile at the cars, even when the cars lose their cool, and not start provoking a fight. The inconvenience from CM is so negligible that I think it is reasonable for the City to keep on allowing CM to occur.

Bikes rolling though stop signs or red lights happens for the same reason as cars going 30+ in a 25 mph zone, or people jay-walking. It has always happened and it always will. It's human nature to break laws that don't make sense given the circumstances. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's simply human nature and calling for a authoritarian regime to crack down on everyone or licenses for bikes are crack-pot ideas. For practical reasons alone it would be too expensive.

Getting people to obey the traffic laws is more about providing user-friendly infrastructure and common-sense laws. Imagine trying to make max speeds on the highway 55 again. Doesn't make sense given the capabilities of the modern car, and hardly anyone would follow that law. Most people go faster than our current speed limits.

Since bikes must roll with cars I can understand trying to get bikes to follow all the same laws. From a car driver's perspective it is what is most convenient. But bikes aren't cars and no one will ever get them to blindly obey all car laws. It simply will never be, and that's because it's not a big deal. The bike accidents aren't happening because bikes are bending the rules. They are usually rider error and most often spaced-out or incompetent car drivers.

Provide more cycling infrastructure and we will see roadway conflict go down. Forcing bikes to live with an overly car-centic city will cause conflict to escalate.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 3:42 p.m.

Let me start by saying that I give bicyclist ample room and try my best to anticipate what their actions might be. If I see the road narrowing where I will be passing them,I will always give wide berth even moving to other lanes if safe to do so. I always give a couple of quick toots on the horn to make sure that they know I am overtaking them. They have as much of a privelege to be on the road as I do.Notice that I said privelege. Nobody has the right.You have Critical mass demonstrators,and you have Critical m***holes.I will give you the benefit of the doubt.However if you attempt to "cork" me or attempt to needlessly impede me, You will rue the day.The Subaru driver let you off easy.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 3:53 p.m.

There is a Critical Manners ride in SF ... maybe that's what Seattle needs.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 3:53 p.m.

I used to live and ride in NYC (a CM city). While the most recent incident by bikers is wrong, every day riders are assaulted by motorists and it NEVER makes the news.
Personally, I have been hit by 3 drivers that could not be explained as anything but on purpose.
One driver was a taxi driver that was angry that I was able to ride to the front of the light. WE WERE BOTH AT A STANDSTILL AND HE PULLED FORWARD TO NUDGE ME, TO LET ME KNOW THAT HE WAS NOT HAPPY.
Another driver was blocking the intersection during a red light. I had the green and was trying to pick my way (riding about slower than most walkers because the intersection was blocked illeagally) through the intersection. She, from a standstill, pulled forward to hit my rear tire.
Lastly, I had a livery driver in a Towncar merge right into my lane, forcing me into the curb and almost falling over under the car. He had a fare in his car and thought that he had more of a right than I did to the lane of traffic (an illeagal act).
All three instances are assault with an automobile. It happens EVERY DAY in NYC. And not because bicycle riders are aggressive - but because drivers assault us and do not care that we have a right to the road. They park in our bike lanes and cops don't ticket them. People walk in the bike lanes in Times Square and give you the finger when you yell at them so they don't get run over.
But this does not make the news. The few acts of poor judgment of some cyclists make national news - go figure.
We still need a voice, and we still need a way to make people aware that cyclists have a right to the road. CM is not dead - it just needs some good housekeeping.

Posted by JustRoss at 7/29/08 3:57 p.m.

Posted by pnw_democrat at 7/29/08 3:35 p.m.

Bikes rolling though stop signs or red lights happens for the same reason as cars going 30+ in a 25 mph zone, or people jay-walking. It has always happened and it always will. It's human nature to break laws that don't make sense given the circumstances.

Clearly you can see the difference between a single driver, either due to distraction or arrogance, violating a traffic rule because it works for them at the time, and a group of people coming together and saying "as a group, we are choosing to violate these laws. We will work cooperatively to break those laws, and each individual has different, spontaneously assigned roles, in helping us collectively violate those laws."

In the first case, a cop can identify, pull over, and ticket the driver violating the law. In the latter, if a cop did attempt to enforce the law, how many CM riders do you think would patiently sit around and wait for the officer to get to them to get their name and write a ticket?

And in an organization that insists on pretending that no one is in charge, shouldn't hold you each and every one of those red light runners and on-coming lane violators individually responsible?

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 3:59 p.m.

To ladycat:

Wow...you had to wait a 1/2 hour for the cyclists? HORRIBLE! How many minutes have I had to wait for a bus that has broken down somewhere in front of me, or someone's car that has hit another, snarling traffic?
Critical Mass is ONCE A MONTH. Books are great for reading on the bus, btw.

k in Seattle

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 4:03 p.m.

We should of set the car on fir

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 4:06 p.m.

There is a Critical Manners ride in SF ... maybe that's what Seattle needs.

The first Critical Manners was last year.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 4:10 p.m.

These threats of violence towards impolite bicycle riders really amuse me. I don't ride in Critical Mass; however, I do ride my bike in Seattle. If anyone touches me or threatens me with violence, you better have a damn good lawyer...I can use a settlement to finish my college education.

Posted by JustRoss at 7/29/08 4:34 p.m.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 4:10 p.m.

These threats of violence towards impolite bicycle riders really amuse me. I don't ride in Critical Mass; however, I do ride my bike in Seattle. If anyone touches me or threatens me with violence, you better have a damn good lawyer...I can use a settlement to finish my college education.

Are you implying that you are an impolite bike rider who goes around seattle being rude to drivers? Since you haven't finished college education yet, here's a few terms, mainly legal, to familiarize yourself with--
"the 'fighting words' exception"
"comparative negligence"
"comparative liability"
"doctrine of unclean hands"

Short version is, there are plenty of legal barriers to recovering tons of money from a fight you start.

Posted by Trauma_Hound at 7/29/08 4:37 p.m.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 3:59 p.m.

To ladycat:

Wow...you had to wait a 1/2 hour for the cyclists? HORRIBLE! How many minutes have I had to wait for a bus that has broken down somewhere in front of me, or someone's car that has hit another, snarling traffic?
Critical Mass is ONCE A MONTH. Books are great for reading on the bus, btw.

k in Seattle

See this is what critical mass holes really think about pedestrians. Hope you love my fourteen hole docs up your ass.

Posted by Trauma_Hound at 7/29/08 4:40 p.m.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 4:10 p.m.

These threats of violence towards impolite bicycle riders really amuse me. I don't ride in Critical Mass; however, I do ride my bike in Seattle. If anyone touches me or threatens me with violence, you better have a damn good lawyer...I can use a settlement to finish my college education.

Doesn't look like your education is working very well so far. All so called threats were to CMers if they unlawfully impede me or run me over as a pedestrian ever again. I'm just using their book this time for my reaction. If you run me over, I'm going to kick your butt, if you don't great, you won't get your butt kicked.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 5:01 p.m.

I think the CM is a bunch of posers. Wanna be cyclist. Cycling isn't about making statements, holding up traffic or beating people down.

The people of critical mass that promote and accept this kind of bullSh%t are the reason that cyclist that are riding for the health benifits, the freedom and the feeling of doing something good are getting a bum rap from the rest of the driving population.
CM needs to be stopped before someone really gets hurt or even worse.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 5:58 p.m.

i think most people are missing the point of CM

it has no point, its just fun, there is no protest associated with it, there is no overarching message anyone is trying to deliver

what happen last week was a ride that got out of control, that is it.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 7:52 p.m.

The CM thugs have their own twisted version of reality and language. Sharing the road = taking over the road and denying its use to all others. "We're not blocking traffic, we are traffic" = Corking = blocking traffic. "The driver of the car just ran into the cyclists for no reason" = We'll decide where and when you go.

The brownshirt mindset of these jerks is amazing. Some quotes from above:

--I think corking is fine as the CM group moves through an intersection because it maintains a buffer around the riders.

Really? Who made you a policeman? YOU'LL decide where and when I go? And all so you can break more laws like running red lights and harrassing anyone that gets in your way.

--But bikes aren't cars and no one will ever get them to blindly obey all car laws.

Bike riders aren't capable of following the law? Time to start mandatory education and licensing then.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 8:00 p.m.

The driver was essentially kidnapped and taunted by critical mass. It was a mob activity. Everyone in the CM ride is guilty of a serious crime. Their presence made it happen. This behavior is no different then the traffic circle killing. Except the driver was lucky he didn't get killed. More regulation of bike riders is needed if they are going to organize and get out of hand like this. Have them pay for the organizing through licensing fees. And fines if they are caught unlicensed.

I walk and ride the bus. While walking I can guarantee you that most bikers downtown will flaunt the law any chance they can get away with it. Critical Mass is representative of the biking community.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 8:08 p.m.

please dont blame bike messengers. we do not participate in critical mass !

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 8:17 p.m.

and thugs is what they are. If the mayor and the police can't handle them, joesephine citizen will have to. Someone will eventually get killed by CM and then everyone will be sorry. but too late.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 9:10 p.m.

CM doesn't help drivers want to bike more, but it does build a sense of community within the bicycle culture. Until your city's bike community develops a culture of free events, happenings and gatherings as Portland has done (see ShiftToBikes.org), your cyclists need something on a street level to engage them, form connections, inform each other and build a bike culture worth of praise and where people of all walks of life are CHOOSING to ride bikes.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 10:31 p.m.

If Critical Mass is about "building community in bike culture", why do you cork other bikers? Its a parade of selfish scene kids.

-A Real Biker

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 11:08 p.m.

In response to how Critical Mass riders brake the law and give all cyclists a bad name and are labeled Anarchists and hoodlums: As a bike commuter motorists do stupid things that threaten my life nearly every day such as not properly yielding, not stopping at stop signs, driving and talking on the phone (or any other auto entertainment distraction), not using their turn signal, swerving in and out of their lane, speeding by me with inches to spare, showing off like children by spinning their tires or revving their engines, generally not paying attention to where they are going, throwing objects at me out their windows, etc..

Do I post on a blog every time this happens? No. Because for some odd reason there is a disconnect motorists have with their actions and no one thinks that by not using their turn signal, they can kill someone. Negligence is magnified behind the wheel of an automobile. A cyclist does something to get themselves to their destination faster and more efficiently and becomes public enemy #1 even though the most likely one to get hurt by their actions is there self.

So then when a motorist is intimidated by cyclists trying to calm him down by telling him to patiently wait while the Critical Mass passes, he drives into people with his 3000 pound weapon, all the focus is on the few people who disabled his car so he couldn't inflict more harm to people as he attempted to flee the seen. Something is wrong with a society that puts more importance on a cars tires and windows than on human lives.

With the utmost concern for others safety good citizens chased down a man obsessed with some silly dinner reservations - somehow important enough to run over people for – and disabled his car. They didn't set fire to it and dance around, they didn't cheer, they stopped an enraged man with a dangerous weapon. They then attempted to give their account to the authorities but to def ears. Let's not forget that the ones who went to jail did no bodily harm to this man, they did what was necessary in the seconds they had to act.

Please, People of Seattle, visitors and the rest, we are in the midst of a shift in which car travel will be marginalized by better, more efficient forms of transportation, Don't suffer yourself and other, more enlightened folks with hostility. At the very least, don't make dinner reservations on the last Friday of the month in any major city. It's not as if it is a secret when this event occurs. Put it on your calendar, take the bus, bike or train to work and enjoy the parade!

Posted by unregistered user at 7/30/08 1:50 a.m.

I am all for less car travel and more bussing. But CM created this incident. They got to where they are by breaking laws and being violent.

157800 lol that all sounds like self important crap. You can't rationalize your way out of your bad behavior. All your complaints about car drivers can be applied to you also.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/30/08 7:41 a.m.

Why do we taxpayers have to pay for bike trails when they don't use them. In fact, they ride on the road (during rush hour traffic...idiots!!!) opposed to the bike trail that runs next to the road.

I say NO MORE BIKE TRAILS. Or if they insist on riding on the roads, them make them have tags like all others that ride on the road....hmmmmmmm...seems fair to me.

Posted by JustRoss at 7/30/08 8:14 a.m.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/29/08 11:08 p.m.

In response to how Critical Mass riders brake the law and give all cyclists a bad name and are labeled Anarchists and hoodlums: As a bike commuter motorists do stupid things that threaten my life nearly every day such as not properly yielding, not stopping at stop signs, driving and talking on the phone (or any other auto entertainment distraction), not using their turn signal, swerving in and out of their lane, speeding by me with inches to spare, showing off like children by spinning their tires or revving their engines, generally not paying attention to where they are going, throwing objects at me out their windows, etc..

First of all, even if that's true, didn't your mother ever teach you that two wrongs don't make a right? CMers getting together and harrassing motorists doesn't exactly solve the problem.

Secondly, there is a large difference between single drivers breaking the law, and an organized group working together to break the law.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/30/08 9:31 a.m.

Secondly, there is a large difference between single drivers breaking the law, and an organized group working together to break the law.

And there's a large difference between a single biker or several bikers breaking the law, and an organized group working together to break the law. The CM ride on Friday involved the former, not the latter. But facts don't matter here since people have free reign to make up stuff.

#157800, you make some great points. Nice to see someone here that isn't making knee-jerk reactions based on made up info.

Posted by JustRoss at 7/30/08 10:01 a.m.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/30/08 9:31 a.m.

And there's a large difference between a single biker or several bikers breaking the law, and an organized group working together to break the law. The CM ride on Friday involved the former, not the latter. But facts don't matter here since people have free reign to make up stuff.

Hold up here and fact check for a second. So you are saying that only a few bikers rode through red signals? Only a few of the bikers were riding on the wrong side of the street? Or are you saying that the only law breaking action was the corking? Of course, if the rest of the CMers were riding in accordance with traffic laws (stopping when signals required it, riding only in lanes designated for their direction of travel, etc) "corking" would not be necessary, would it?

As this is a bike event, I see nothing wrong with applying "tour de france" rules here. During the tour, breakaway riders are given separate times at the finish. Finish in the peloton (the large mass of riders), and all riders in the peloton receive the same time, regardless of whether they are at the front of the peloton or the back. By the same token, even if the front riders of CM legally cross an intersection on the green, if the large portion cross against a red, the entire pack shares culpability. If some riders are in the legal traffic lanes, but are riding 6 abreast with the adjacent riders well into the oncoming lanes, they all share responsibility. And if you are riding in the oncoming traffic lane because other bikers have corked up legal traffic and are harrassing and assaulting those drivers (to "protect" your "right" to safely ride on the wrong side of the rode) you bear some degree of culpability for the actions of those corkers, as they wouldn't be corking if you could/would ride on the right side of the road.

If a group has a no formal leadership to take responsibility for the actions of the group, then all members of the group must share culpability, at least in the moral sense.