Posted by unregistered user at 4/4/08 6:14 p.m.

The battery, according to Altairnano's site, is a new type of lithium battery that has the same energy density (watt-hours per kilogram) as NiMH. But it has the new and "disruptive" characteristic of being able to easily and efficiently discharge all of that energy in a blazing burst of less than one minute's duration. With an equally blazing new type of car charger (not shown) the company touts that this type of battery could also be fully charged in one minute. I have to admit that I am a little worried about that amount of electricity being flung around per minute, in a consumer environment.

To power a 10hp car (one horsepower equals 762 watts) for 10 hours would require 76 kilowatt-hours. To discharge or charge a battery of that capacity in one minute, however, requires the release of over 4.5 megawatts continuously for one minute. Dealing with equipment that is capable of that is not child's play.

Altairnano's web link to their battery's technical datasheet gives a "404 Not Found" error currently, but lithium titanate chemistry will have many advantages when it is perfected, and appears to be a promising development for the future.

Posted by unregistered user at 4/4/08 7:23 p.m.

The numbers in the story for the ten minute industrial charger (250 kW = .25 megawatt) suggest that the vehicle's battery stores about 40 kilowatt-hours. Charging it in six hours at 6.6 kilowatts from a household 230 volt outlet, as mentioned in the article, would require just under 30 amps.

While a hypothetical 76 kilowatt-hour battery capacity, as posited in the above comment, would allow a car to have a 10 hour operating period at 10 horsepower, this car's actual capacity of about 40 kW-hours would allow it to operate for 5 hours at about 10 hp average, or 3.2 hours at 15 hp average. This latter figure seems to fit with the company's claim of 100 miles per charge, if the car averages 30 mph. At 50 mph, a 100 mile range would fully deplete a full charge in 2 hours.

A 250kW charger, if it operated at 230 volts, would need to output about 1,100 amps for ten minutes. Depending on its efficiency, its input current draw would be a little more than that. At 90% efficiency, the ten minute charger would dissipate 25,000 watts as waste heat. Clearly, a ten minute car charger is not a household item.

A one minute charger for this car, if ever developed, would draw about 2.5 megawatts, based on the battery information provided in the article. The previous comment's example numbers were based on considering a somewhat more powerful battery than is actually installed in this car.

Posted by unregistered user at 4/4/08 8:01 p.m.

At 40 kWh, that's about a 20 horsepower average input to the motor at 50 mph, if the car were to sustain 50 mph for a range of 100 miles. Motor output would be a little less, depending on efficiency.

Now I see that the SUT specs page lists the battery capacity as 35 kWh, very close to the numbers derived from the charging info in the P-I article.

I'll believe that the electric drivetrain has the power to haul the 5,820 pound SUT around in normal driving in hilly Seattle. It doesn't say anything about regenerative braking, and mentions disc brakes. So it looks like the range would take a hit in non-flat terrain.

Posted by unregistered user at 4/4/08 8:20 p.m.

Another way to look at it is that 35 kWh is 46 horsepower-hours. You could draw 46 hp from the battery for one hour, or 23 hp for two hours, or 15.3 hp for 3 hours. Motive power to the wheels, given the efficiency of the drive train, would be somewhat less. That would allow 92 hp battery draw for 30 minutes, which might be somewhere in the ballpark of taking this thing at freeway speeds fully loaded up Snoqualmie Pass.

Posted by unregistered user at 4/5/08 9:09 a.m.

@1 -- "I have to admit that I am a little worried about that amount of electricity being flung around per minute, in a consumer environment."

Assuming the appropriate safeguards are in place, I'm no more concerned about this than I am of consumers transferring 10 - 30 gallons of an explosive, highly energy-dense liquid from one tank to another on a regular basis.

Posted by TerryP at 4/5/08 2:02 p.m.

Indeed, even regular vehicles have problems; but you don't want to bring a vehicle to what might be called "a high value presentation" and have this happen.

If someone wants a flatbed truck that has a lot of capability, and which uses solely electric power, he or she might want to consider the truck sold by Modec (located in England). It was presented to potential fleet owners, here in Seattle, last September, as part of the Hybrid Truck Users Forum.

While not a hybrid, it was probably the nicest looking truck there - yes, too bad you can't touch it, feel it and more importantly, drive it - and the line to drive it was long. The price was "to be determined" and no, it couldn't go as fast as 90 mph (although it could go up to 55 mph, without a governor on the propulsion system). But for use around the Port of Seattle (who had a driver comment favorably upon it, after a brief drive), it would do the job A-OK.

Posted by unregistered user at 4/6/08 10:30 a.m.

Always have a backup. If the "star" gets sick, goes down, gets broken, whatever, the "understudy" steps in to take over the show. Poor management of this presentation for sure.

They should have had two of these things ready, NO MATTER WHAT THE COST, or should not have atttempted to put on the "dog and pony" show.

Posted by shadowed at 4/6/08 10:56 a.m.

Wonderful! I hope they get the glitches worked out.

And I also hope somebody somewhere starts building the infrastructure needed to support vehicles like this. More and more people will be living in condos and townhouses without access to electricity for their vehicles. This is a fact we need to face, forced on us, wisely or not, by the combination of UGA density regulations and Seattle's new parking (or lack thereof) requirements for new develeopment. It doesn't do these folks (apartment dwellers, etc.) a lot of good to make these advancements if nobody (builders or municipal governements) takes steps to allow refueling.

Plus the cost of replacing batteries was very prohibitive when I researched the Prius about seven or eight (it was just after Toyota announced they would start selling them in the U.S.) years ago. So while encouraged by the entrepreneurial spirit, I am discouraged by the practical aspects. It's probably a decade at least before this is a feasible option for city people.

Posted by unregistered user at 4/6/08 2:10 p.m.

Everyone here makes some good points, to which I can only add the following: Me like make electric car go vroom vroom real fast! Weee!

Posted by unregistered user at 4/6/08 3:13 p.m.

Why would anyone want to present the Secretary of Transporation with a "prototype of an earlier version"?

Posted by fletc3her at 4/7/08 11:53 a.m.

So, a 6.6 kW charger for 5 to 6 hours would draw 33 to 40 kWh of electricity. At about $0.65/kWh for electricity that full "tank" would cost $21.45 to $26.00. That's a good deal, if the napkin calculation penciles out, compared to a tank of diesel, but is certainly not a negligible expense.

It concerns me that we don't see these kind of calculations in most articles about electric cars or plug-in hybrids. Since these cars rely on a "fuel" other than gasoline it doesn't make any sense to talk about gas mileage. We need to hear about a fuel-neutral method of comparing mileage, like cost per mile.

Posted by unregistered user at 4/7/08 5:39 p.m.

Shadowed, the Phoenix has Altair disruptive NanoSafe(TM) battery which boasts 25,000 charge/discharge cycles. Even if you charge/discharge 3 times per day (for 300+ miles of travel per day, every day), the battery would still last you 22 years! ...prob longer than the life of most cars. So if true, you dont have to worry about battery replacement (how about worrying about replacing your car for use with the same battery instead)

Fletc3her, where do you live such that your electricity is $0.65/kWh?!? Average US utility is around $0.20/kWh, and some allows for peak-offpeak pricing, which can go as low as $0.07/kWh if you charge off peak (like at night when it's cheapest). So this is feasible now, unless you want to travel more than 50miles from your home. The only constraint is the costs of the battery.

Posted by unregistered user at 4/7/08 5:45 p.m.

Puget Sound Energy's residential rates are slightly under 10 cents per kWh. Charging a 35 kWh battery would cost about

35 kWh
x 1.11 (90% charger efficiency)
x $0.099 (approx. PSE total cost/kWh)
-------
= $3.85

That's good for 100 miles of driving. In other words, electricity at low hydroelectric rates costs about 3.85 cents per mile in PSE territory.

At 30,000 miles a year, it would cost about $1,155 per year to "fuel" the SUT. Seattle City Light rates are even less.

At $3.50 per gallon and 35 mpg (10 cents per mile) driving a gasoline powered car 30,000 miles would cost $3,000 for fuel.

The difference is 6.15 cents per mile. For every 1,000 miles driven, fuel savings would be $61.50. At 30,000 miles, that would be $1,845.

At 30,000 miles per year, for every $1,845 more that the SUT costs than an equivalent gasoline-powered vehicle, it would take an additional year to recover the SUT's higher cost, at these electricity and gas prices. If the SUT (at $47,500) costs $18,450 more than an equivalent gas powered car (at $29,050), that would be 10 years.

These numbers would be different in areas where electricity costs are higher. Compared to a 35 mpg car, fuel costs would be the same when gas costs $3.50 per gallon (10 cents per mile) and electricity costs 25.7 cents per kWh (10 cents per mile).

More generally, fuel costs would be the same when gas costs 13.6 times as much per gallon as electricity costs per kWh. With gas at $4.00 a gallon, electricity would have to cost more than 29.4 cents per kWh before it would be more expensive to run the SUT than the gasoline powered car.

In your example, using 65 cents per kWh, the cost per mile of electricity for the SUT is about 2.5 times higher than the fuel cost of a 35 mpg car at $3.50 per gallon. Of course, there are many other costs of operating a gasoline powered vehicle, and the SUT might make economic sense even at relatively high electricity costs, if all costs were taken into consideration.

The SUT weighs much more than one would hope an electric car would eventually weigh. These cost camparisons will shift as electric vehicles become less expensive in initial cost and lighter in weight for a given power and range.

Posted by unregistered user at 4/7/08 5:48 p.m.

The Phoenix SUT/SUV does have "programmable" regen. As a matter of fact, some test drive reviewers state that the only difference between driving a Phoenix SUT and a regular gasoline truck is the quiteness of the EV, and the very strong regen that feels like a much stronger engine-braking deceleration in a normal gasoline car.

Posted by unregistered user at 4/8/08 10:24 p.m.

Very true about having a backup for a big-ticket show. It does not show much confidence (or capital) to have one truck to show. Afterall, aren't they planning on making a couple hundred SUT's someday??? Why not have the first few units of the production run ready?

The charging rate will be an issue if it cannot be done like advertised. Personally, I can't see them selling a vehicle like that for the prices they are quoting. Seems very reasonable considering the other units coming forth.

All these EV startups remind me of the raging dot-com craze several years ago. Many will come, some will stay, some will go....

Posted by DC Driver at 4/13/08 7:52 a.m.

I think that we should support these entrepreneurs, they are the best minds among us and are giving us the tools we need to once more become the leader in technology and industry. For us to continue on a path of mega oil consumption is at best lazy irresponsible and infantile. We have and opportunity once again to prosper from breakthrough technology discovered right here in the U.S. we seem to lack the will to follow through I fear the majority of us have become apathetic, fat, and lazy in regards to our modes of transportation. I for one refused to to pay for such a huge increase if gasoline cost over such a short period of time, I converted an old 1970 vw to electric drive even with antiquated battery technology I only pay $30.00 a month on charging as opposed to approx. $100.0-$120.00 a month on gas. I admit a 72 volt DC drive system in the car just barely can keep up with traffic and highway travel is out of the question. But it works for what I need it for a 15 mile round trip from home to work and home again. The cars top speed is about 50 mph on flat terrain and about 40 up modest grades. I hope that these future batteries become affordable and available to the public,this car is estimated to last 15 years without any work needed on the drive systems not much of an incentive for a return on a manufacturer's investment through the servicing and parts replacement. I think car companies need a little more time to figure out a way to complicate systems and build in defects in order to get more return on their investments after all it just doesn't make much business sense to go from the platform they have now which nets them millions in the servicing of internal combustion engines to a platform which is virtually maintinence free. The system I use is simplicity, fewer components fewer things to break, my advise to Phoenix Motor Car keep it as simply as possible, I like the idea of a 20 year battery it what we truly need it's the heart of the car like the engine was in the antiquated technologies we use in gas burning cars of today, lets lead the world once again don't let this opportunity pass us by support these guys and spread the word.

DC Driver

Posted by unregistered user at 4/14/08 6:21 p.m.

Sorry about the type o I was in a hurry at the end and meant to say It's what we truly need, It's ( meaning the battery)is the heart of an electric car like the internal combustion motor in our gas guzzlers of today, Altairnano is claiming a 20 year life span for their batteries, even at $5000.00-$7000.00 a wack it's worth it, you will be replacing the car under the battery every 10 years not the other way around provided the battery is warrantied. 30 mpg is not going to cut it for the next fleet of future vehicles , not at this rate of increase in fuel costs. So write you congressmen, come on people get them of their corrupted corporate puppeted jackasses so we can get real comprehensive proactive legislation passed to accelerate a transportation agenda that will truly move this country in a positive direction and lead the world in future transportation technologies. Don't wait for China to do it first.

DC Driver

Posted by unregistered user at 4/29/08 9:12 p.m.

The Altair battery had a "theoretical" overheating problem, and all the batteries delivered over the last year were recalled for warranty replacement. None of the batteries actually overheated, but computer modeling identified a possible scenario where overheating could occur. The potential problem was not in the battery cells themselves, but the way they were chained together to make modules. It was a wiring problem.

Altair is replacing the batteries, using larger cells that are identical to the cells used in their 2 megawatt industrial power batteries (that's a big battery). In the end, having the EV and commercial batteries based on the same cells will probably be a manufacturing plus... more production volume = lower unit prices. Phoenix has also changed the configuration of their vehicles, from rear to front-wheel drive, and this change would have necessitated a battery re-design as well. Let's watch and see if Phoenix is able to deliver the revised vehicles by June or July.

The rapid charge capacity of the Phoenix Altair batteries has been demonstrated by a number of third parties. Interestingly, the batteries charge to about 80% in the first minute, and then to 95-100% in the next 9 minutes.

Driving range for the Phoenix vehicle is over 100 miles, about 130 miles at freeway speeds. A next generation battery is in the works which should extend the range to about 200 miles, with the same rapid charge capacity.

--Brian

Posted by unregistered user at 5/8/08 5:44 p.m.

This is great news I trust you are an informed source and you give EV conversion folks such as myself hope in the short term solutions to a very serious dependency problem. I can't wait to be able to replace my lead acid pack with a pack that will be 1/3 the weight and 4 times the longevity.

I think the elected senators and other representatives are for the most part ignorant of the technical aspects of the countries problems as of late. The so called lawmakers appear to be unqualified to make the necessary decisions to lead this countries transportation infrastructure changes. They are stymied by old notions of progress or have lost the gonads to stand up to their campaign contributors. We all must write or email these CIVIL SERVANTS and let them know we want these changes now!

Posted by unregistered user at 7/17/08 3:16 a.m.

The comments which I left about the alleged murderer currently held in Italy had been deleted.

Perhaps this was done intentionally?

You and the other alleged murderer fans do not like it when people comment that they rather believe scientific evidence than the prime murder suspects agents e. g. family, friends, mercenaries, self promoters and fast buck merchants etc.

I do not understand your rationale, do you want comments all over the place or do you prefer to have them contained in a blog? An enigma, really, or do you not think strategically?

I don't believe you would be trying to intentionally deceive your viewer ship, but I do know one "journalist" who seems to be doing this and she is very aggressive when it comes to dissenters.

BTW, you might want to download a program which will allow you to post comments to SeattlePI forums even though two IP addresses have already been banned and perhaps more.

Anyway,

I believe murderers must be punished, not doing so is a slap in the face of the victims and their relatives, not to mention the general public.

This re-minds me of a case in Italy where a University student had been viciously murdered.

Unfortunately some of the so called journalists at SeattlePI seem to be supportive of the suspected murderer by publishing favourable articles about the prime murder suspect while at the same time actively remove comments from people who believe in justice and would like to see justice served.

Those un-ethical SeattlePI journalists should be ashamed of themselves.

You are bringing your employer into disrepute which will result in lost potential revenue. You might want to consult the accounting and marketing department before acting irresponsibly.