Posted by Marine Vet at 6/19/08 5:47 p.m.

These sounds like a great idea to me. So many people live along those routes. Imagine if even a fourth of those people took the streetcar into downtown instead of driving. Traffic would actually be manageable.

However, if there is not enough money, cut out the line from Westlake to the U district since the light rail will go there soon anyway.

Posted by Perry at 6/19/08 6:38 p.m.

Why build the Central line when there is already transportation 2/3 of the way there? The existing Monorail... I know the word "Monorail" is fraught with emotion here is crazy little Seattle - BUT - the existing monorail is already on a direct route to the King street station. It's on 5th avenue which goes right into the heart of the International District transportation hub. It's a perfect fine transportation system and for a system that's as old as it is it's still amazingly quite - they've really worked on it over the las few years - I live right next to it and the airplanes overhead are nosier. they've moved the tracks once before for the Westlake center, so we know it's not that hard to change the current system, should be less expensive and disruptive than building a whole new streetcar line. Besides - it will end that ever present question by people on the current monorail - "Is this it? No more stops?" :-)

Posted by Ted Fleming at 6/19/08 6:51 p.m.

Why do we need more transportation options anyway?

Posted by unregistered user at 6/19/08 6:54 p.m.

Don't know if we need the 1st Avenue line, but the rest are all urgently needed. These streetcars can all provide seamless connections to our under-construction light rail line. Let's just make sure that they all connect and that we have a streetcar *system* as opposed to a bunch of disconnected lines that all require their own maintenance facility, vehicles, etc.

Posted by Up North at 6/19/08 7:41 p.m.

Well Seattle is not the only city debating streetcars, a recent University of British Columbia study claims that for the cost of 12 kilometers of Skytrain or metro, one could build about 175 kilometers of LRT/streetcars!

http://thetyee.ca/News/2008/06/05/UpWithTrams/

In real measurement this means one can build over 20 miles of streetcar line for one mile of metro. Seattle's so called light rail line has more in common with Vancouver's Skytrain light-metro system than Portland's LRT, with mile of rights-of-ways operating on grade separated guide-ways or in subway.

Maybe Seattle and Vancouver are a wee bit behind the times with transit planning, with politicians and bureaucrats championing massively expensive politically prestigious light/heavy metro lines, instead of building much cheaper, just a effective streetcars.

With gas nearing $5.00 a gallon, maybe the streetcars time has come again.

Posted by Tenochtitlan at 6/19/08 7:57 p.m.

Few these lines address Seattle's beautiful hills, which make walking long distances more difficult. Capitol Hill--my hill--needs a direct connection to Downtown and also to Seattle Center. I used to walk all the time between my home here and the various goodies Downtown, but I'm not as fit as I used to be and now it's too much of an effort. A streetcar to cover the hills would be just the thing. Ditto for Queen Anne Hill to Downtown.

The Ballard to Westlake line is a great idea. The U-District to Downtown line is not, because bus service is already so good, and the light rail is coming anyway. The First Hill to Pioneer Square line is also a good idea, and does address that huge hill problem.

Posted by Del at 6/19/08 8:24 p.m.

Absolutely never understood why the Monorail wasn't
built all the way to Pioneer Square in the first place. Would have tied the city together, esp for the tourists traveling between the Center and PS. Also would have been great for all the business types downtown to be able to have lunch at the Center or PS.

Guess the monorail was built at the same time when the Powers That Be wanted a ring freeway around the city core. Luckily that got blown away.

Posted by rcdurden at 6/19/08 9:06 p.m.

Hurry up and do it and stop whining.

Even sprawling-ass Austin is set to build a new streetcar system in addition to its commuter rail. We've actually got density here, and a small city in backwards-ass Texas is beating us on public transportation. Come on.

Posted by J Ortiz at 6/20/08 1:02 p.m.

I like that we are making an effort at alternatives to cars. I am concerned, however, about the interaction between streetcars and the rest of the on-street vehicular population (i.e. buses, cars, bikes, pedestrians, etc.) and environment (i.e. lights, jams, accidents, etc.). Aren't these the same limitations that work agains an all-bus solution? I mean, what's the incentive for a car driver to ride a streetcar that takes as long or longer to get anywhere than a car? This is a guesstimate, but I venture to say that anything over a 20% delay over their current commute time would be unacceptable to many.

Posted by unregistered user at 6/20/08 2:28 p.m.

I think this would be great. I used to live in San Francisco and the street cars were awesome. It will enliven that corridor and make this a better city for residents and visitors.

Posted by JonSM99 at 6/20/08 3:46 p.m.

Actually Marine Vet, the UW line is the most likely of the four routes to turn a profit, partly because it would replace the 70 bus which would save a lot. Building that one could help finance the other three.

Up North, Vancouver saves boatloads of money because the technology they use on SkyTrain (also found on Paris' 14 line and Toronto's Scarborough Rapid Transit line) uses no conductors. Transit agencies typically spend ~80% of their operating budgets on labor. That's a major reason why SkyTrain turns a profit, enabling the region to add other transit options.

Streetcars certainly have their place, but they don't have their own right of way or reach very high speeds. They cannot substitute for heavy or even light rail; connecting downtown to Northgate for example, would make little sense by streetcar. They make lots of sense to connect dense urban areas like those proposed though.

MANY cities have built or are considering streetcars. Kenosha, WI has one. Columbus, OH is considering one. I believe Nashville has one. St. Louis and Washington, DC are building them. Everyone's adding transit because we NEED it.

Gas: $4.50 a gallon.
Parking: $10 a day?
Streetcar: $1.75.
Slowing global warming: priceless.

Posted by TLS from the PNW at 6/21/08 12:30 p.m.

I take the bus (71, 72, or 73) from downtown to the U District every weekday, after riding the Sounder into the city. Adding a streetcar line from downtown to the U seems like yet another half-baked idea. Eastlake isn't exactly a wide street, and during rush hour buses already have trouble keeping anything approaching their scheduled times - adding a streetcar is going to hurt, not help, the situation (I don't want to even think about the construction either). The bus lines I mention run every 8-10 minutes, plus the 30/70 serve the area - it's probably one of the best-served areas by mass transit already. Additionally, why build a streetcar line that's just going to duplicate Sound Transit's light rail northern segment?

Posted by unregistered user at 6/22/08 12:13 a.m.

Hey rcdurden, why don't you fly into DFW Airport and when you get off the plane start talking about how "backwards-ass" Texas is. Have you ever even been there? And I have news for you, the population of that "small town" of Austin is larger than that of Seattle.

I just moved here from Texas a year ago. It is absolutely beautiful and rich in culture and I love almost everything about it. About the only thing I've found that I don't like are pompous self-absorbed a-holes such as yourself.

Posted by diehardTRANSITadvocate at 6/22/08 6:18 p.m.

Unregistered User? Dallas has a Light Rail System now that is interesting on it's next phase of expansion. Talk of connecting Downtown Dallas with both airports, DFW and Love Field, especially now that I believe Southwest has got the Wright Amendment repealed and can now do longer flights out of that airport if they so wish. DART bought high-floor LRVs as the ADA took effect, but something interesting happened, rather than building higher platforms, they inserted a low-floor center section into them, a very European thing for Texas to do(Switzerland I believe had some cities that did the same with high floor cars that had not been totally paid off yet, and still had some use out of them).

Also, LINK Light Rail will not be running on Eastlake, but under Capitol Hill, under Broadway as it heads for a tunnel under Montlake Cut. A streetcar would most likely be crossing the canal via University Bridge, which by the way is one of the bridges streetcars used to use to cross the Canal. Fremont, Ballard, and Montlake were the others. By the way, the 98 does go along the route of an old streetcar route to South Lake Union that went all the way to Everett, but continued on Westlake when it hit the lake, crossed via Fremont Bridge, climbed up through Greenwood, and continued past the former city line at N.85th St, and all the way to Everett.

Posted by unregistered user at 6/23/08 6:19 a.m.

A streetcar is a complete waste of money which would otherwise would be better saved and spent on more light rail. "Trackless trolleys" (electric buses) are:
- environmentally friendly: they're electric
- proven technology: Metro already uses them in Capitol
Hill and Queen Anne
- inexpensive to setup and run compared to streetcars.
- can go around obstacles on the roadway, like parked
cars

Seattle should focus on getting more bus hours from King County Metro instead of this wasteful use of tax dollars. Buses already run on most of these proposed routes.

Posted by unregistered user at 6/23/08 6:23 a.m.

Is Seattle's Department of Transportation in the business of running public transit now? Is this an overlap of resources better built and run by Metro?

Posted by unregistered user at 6/24/08 8:25 a.m.

The streetcar idea is appealing, but I had the same thought about electric busses. Why not expand what is already working rather than start a new system? That said, I'd sure like to see an easy public tranport connection between Ballard and Fremont. And what about bus transportation to major parks? The metro trip planner says "not possible" to my inquiries about getting from Fremont to either Carkeek Park or Golden Gardens. Discovery and Magnusen parks are reachable -- but the trip will take nearly 1.5 hours! --Lisa

Posted by shangrilacottage at 6/25/08 2:07 a.m.

I believe we had streetcars all over Seattle at one time ... and then the tracks were torn up. Actually streetcars are perfect for the hills of Seattle.

Posted by chrisman at 6/25/08 10:32 a.m.

we did have streetcars all over seattle! then everyone wanted to drive their own cars so they made more room on the roads for them. now it is the opposite. i think the streetcar lines are going to be a lot more useful than what we have right now. i think i saw a record number of 10 people riding the S.L.U.T. the other day. Put streetcars somewhere were people actually want to go. Make Seattle more bike-able. I'd like to see them extend the Burke trail thru Ballard and make the Ballard bridge not so sketchy to bike over in addition to the street car lines. You could go anywhere in Seattle!

Posted by PatInSeattle at 6/25/08 11:03 a.m.

please NO MORE BUSES! we need these lines badly. if i hear that we should use more buses, i will puke!

Posted by jinjimbob at 6/25/08 2:23 p.m.

Uses buses, puke away.

Posted by WOW ! at 6/26/08 5:02 p.m.

Pat - what is the problem with buses ? You think a street car is going to keep that stinky, homeless guy from sitting next to you ? Think again. TLS from the PNW is right - you can throw the # 66 in there as an option also. Metro can take $500 million and buy more buses - TODAY. Price of fuel ? How much diesel/natural gas will $500 million buy ? Sigh - I know, this is Seattle - the field of dreams for transportation. I know - how about personal flying discs ?

Posted by Clever Connections at 6/27/08 9:19 a.m.

Some people will tell you that the bus system is fine and all of these other options are expensive duplications of service.
I grew up in Seattle and have had so many bad experiences on the bus and waiting for the bus that I just want any better alternative.
When you've been beat up at a stop, sardined in a stairwell, purposely passed up, stranded on a non-moving bus, and waited for a bus that never comes; then see how much better ANYTHING ELSE sounds!

Posted by unregistered user at 6/28/08 10:28 p.m.

Use buses, more of them. Far, far, far cheaper than any rail. Get some in place by the end of September, see how they do, expand as needed.

Neighborhood buses in the 1960's made it possible for people with no cars or only 1 car to do errands all day long. Today, unless you're going downtown, errand running is impossible within the neighborhoods.

BUSES BUSES and SMALL ONES PLEASE.

Posted by unregistered user at 6/29/08 7:05 a.m.

Install Light Rail for the longer hauls, then run feeder routes to support areas served by Light Rail.

This is more economical than running four streetcar lines which can be better served by running buses, electric or otherwise.

Think about it: What ends are the City exactly achieving by running streetcars on lines which cost WAY WAY LESS when buses are run on the same?

Are streetcars faster? No. They are at street level, travelling on non-dedicated rights of ways. This means that streetcars get stuck in traffic. Since they can't move around obstacles by changing lanes, buses can run faster than these cars.

Are streetcars more eco-friendly? No. Electic buses already run through different neighborhoods. They are just as eco-friendly as the streetcars, but cost WAY WAY LESS. It's also proven technology.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/1/08 8:00 a.m.

Tenoch, there is a direct connection to Seattle Center from Capitol Hill: the #8 bus.

Posted by unregistered user at 7/1/08 12:51 p.m.

And what about bus transportation to major parks? The metro trip planner says "not possible" to my inquiries about getting from Fremont to either Carkeek Park or Golden Gardens. Discovery and Magnusen parks are reachable -- but the trip will take nearly 1.5 hours! --Lisa


To Carcreek from Fremont: Take the 28 northbound and get off at the QFC after you pass under Holman Road

To Golden Gardens from Fremont: Take the 28 northbound to market street, transfer to the westbound 44.

Its really not that hard.....

Posted by tiffany at 7/2/08 8:50 a.m.

Why are we not building a master transportation system? The lightrail is almost finished - shouldn't any new lines be part of this system? Think London Underground or SF Muni Metro.

Lightrail here, SLUT over there, random streetcars scattered throughout. I'm ALL for rail transport, but it's stupid to build it piecemeal (comprised of different trains, different rail widths/types.)

Posted by JKat at 7/2/08 10:09 p.m.

More streetcars makes no sense at all, especially spending $599 million on them! I live in the South Lake Union area. I've noticed many more people take one of the 70 buses down Fairview, or the 17 down Westlake than the people that take the streetcar. The streetcar is almost always empty while the buses along the same route are usually full.

It's not too hard to realize why. The buses travel much farther distances, like going from downtown to either UW or Freemont, and go just as fast as the streetcars for the short distance they do go. If you want to build a train, it needs to be either above ground or under ground so it can get you there faster than by taking the streets! There is no advantage to a streetcar over a bus!

Posted by Oranviri at 7/3/08 5:54 a.m.

Remember that Seattle gets only 20% of new Metro service with the rest going to south and east King County, that includes Transit Now service. The city has already invested through the Transit Now partnerships program to add more bus service in the city.

As for the streetcars, it is a way for the city to make huge new investments without begging Metro and Sound Transit for the money. I like streetcars, which are a proven technology long before any buses came along. As I saw in recent comments, some people don't know what buses go where. Streetcars are more user friendly although you could argue that doing BRT can yield similar results, BRT does not have the permanence or scalability of rail (more capacity with less labor). The cost of buses don't include the cost of repaving the street, the cost of the streetcar does, so buses are not really cheaper. Buses are less durable than trains too.

If the 70 was replaced by a UW streetcar, ridership on the line would greatly increase for local trips. The problem with the streetcar is that it doesn't go far enough. This system will address that. European cities have had a mix of heavy rail, streetcars, and buses for years.

The 71, 72, 73, 74 expresses would be replaced by the U Link which will cut travel times between the UW and downtown via Capitol Hill to about 10 minutes! Light rail serves a different purpose than the streetcars and are not interchangeable.

Posted by robespierrette at 7/22/08 8:23 a.m.

I second the comment about addressing hills! We have a lot of them, and they are a real barrier for people.

In Seattle, it's usually really easy to go North-South, and tough to go East-West. I'd love to see more truly cross-town transit options, such as the previous commenter's suggestion of connecting Capital/First Hill to Downtown, or providing a U-District/Wallingford/Ballard connection. I suppose that you always have to start with the highest-volume lines, but I'd hate to see yet another system that makes it necessary for people to go in to a central hub and back out again, rather than heading directly to where they want to go.

Posted by unregistered user at 8/7/08 2:05 a.m.

Nothing is stopping land owners from helping finance the construction. These land owners should invest their savings in a company that wants to run these street cars. They will profit if it is a good idea and lose their investment if it is a dumb idea.

If a group of interested parties have not saved enough to finance the street cars, that does not mean they suddenly have the right to use the democratic process to steal other people's savings through a new tax.

Stealing is generally considered immoral.