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Full text: Microsoft execs on Vista problems

A federal judge today unsealed internal Microsoft e-mails that have been used to support the plaintiffs' case in the lawsuit over the "Windows Vista Capable" program. Snippets were previously read aloud in court, but the full messages go further to reveal extensive hand-wringing, at the highest levels of the company, over Windows Vista's hardware and software compatibility problems after the operating system was launched.

Follow-up: Vista: How cozy were Microsoft and Intel?

Related stories and posts

  • Vista Capable suit gets class-action status
  • Windows Vista at one year: Progress and pain
  • A computer shop's sales pitch: We remove Vista
  • Microsoft's assessment
  • Gates defends Windows Vista, sees challenges ahead

  • For example, one February 2007 exchange (PDF, 17 pages) started with an e-mail to Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer from board member Jon Shirley, who explained that he upgraded one of his computers to Windows Vista only to find it was experiencing compatibility problems with two of Microsoft's own MSN applications. Shirley wasn't upgrading his other computer because of a lack of hardware drivers. As many early Windows Vista users know, Shirley wasn't the only one experiencing those kinds of problems, especially in the initial months after release.

    In addition to some of the previously reported excerpts -- including executive Mike Nash's complaint that compatibility problems turned his $2,100 PC into nothing more than an "email machine" -- that thread led to a revealing message from Steven Sinofsky, then the newly installed Windows chief. In the message, Sinofsky offered his take on what went wrong with Windows Vista's launch, and how the company should change its approach in the future.

    This is particularly notable given Sinofsky's public silence during the past year. It will no doubt be closely examined by people looking for clues about Microsoft's strategy with Windows 7, the code name for Windows Vista's successor. Read on for the full text of Sinofsky's message:

    From: Steven Sinofsky
    Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:08 PM
    To: Steve Ballmer
    Cc: Bill Veghte, Jon DeVaan
    Subject: RE: Vista

    I think folks are working on this now and we just need time.

    Basically I think three things worked against us:

  • No one really believed we would ever ship so they didn't start the work until very late in 2006. This led to the lack of availability. For example my home multi-function printer did not have drivers until 2/2 and even pulled their 1/30 drivers and re-released them (Brother).
  • Massive change in the underpinnings for video and audio really led to a poor experience at RTM, especially with respect to Windows Media Center. This change led to incompatibilities. For example, you don't get Aero with an XP driver, but your card might not (ever) have a Vista driver.
  • A lot of change led to many Windows XP drivers not really working at all -- this is across the board for printers, scanners, wan, accessories (fingerprint readers, smartcards, tv tuners), and so on. This category is due to the fact that many of the associated applets don't run within the constraints of the security model or the new video/audio driver models. For example, OrlandoA [Microsoft executive Orlando Ayala] is not on Vista because there are no drivers for his Verizon card yet. Microsoft's own hardware was missing a lot of support (fingerprint reader, MCE extender, etc.)

    PicturePeople who rely on using all the features of their hardware (like Jon's Nikon scanner) will not see availability for some time, if ever, depending on the mfg. The built-in drivers never have all the features but do work. For example, I could print with [my] Brother printer and use it as a stand-alone fax. But network setup, scanning, print to fax must come from Brother.

    The Vista Ready logo program required drivers available on 1/30. I think we had had reasonable coverage, but quality was uneven as I experienced.

    Intel has the biggest challenge. Their "945" chipset which is the baseline Vista set "barely" works right now and is very broadly used. The "915" chipset which is not Aero capable is in a huge number of laptops and was tagged as "Vista Capable" but not Vista Premium. I don't know if this was a good call. But these function but will never be great. Even a 945 set has new builds of drivers coming out constantly but hopes are on the next chipset rather than this one.

    The point Jim [Allchin, the previous Windows chief] had of declaring a Release Candidate was because he sensed people were not really working under a deadline in the ecosystem. This helped even though we knew we had more work to do on our side.

    So far I am surprised at the low call volume in PSS [Product Support Services]. I think we have a lot of new PCs which helps and the hobbyist people who bought FPP/UPG [Full Packaged Product or upgrade] just know what to do and aren't calling, but I know they are struggling.

    All of this is why we need much more clarity and focus at events like WinHEC [Windows Hardware Engineering Conference]. We need to be clearer with industry and we need to decide what we will do and do that well and 100% and not just do a little of everything which leaves the IHV [Independent Hardware Vendors] in a confused state.

  • That was a year ago, and a lot could have changed in the time since, but the general sentiment seems to confirm the notion that the Windows team, under Sinofsky, will be more selective in what it tries to tackle.

    Ballmer's response to Sinofsky was telling: "Righto," the CEO wrote.

    We're still sifting through the e-mails, and we'll report more as warranted. If anyone else is interested in examing the entire set, here it is: PDF, 158 pages. At more than 3.6 MB, it may take quite a while to load. Feel free to post in the comments if anything stands out. You'll see that certain portions have been redacted by the court.

    Update, 4:45 p.m.: Many of the messages released today debate the status of the Intel 915 chipset -- which was given a Windows Vista Capable designation despite not being able to run Aero glass and other advanced Vista features. Microsoft executive John Kalkman gave more background on that decision in a February 2007 e-mail to Scott Di Valerio, then the executive in charge of Microsoft's relations with computer makers.

    Kalkman wrote:

    In the end, we lowered the requirement to help Intel make their quarterly earnings so they could continue to sell motherboards with the 915 graphics embedded. This in turn did two things: 1. Decreased focus of OEMs planning and shipping higher end graphics for Vista-ready programs and 2. Reduced the focus by IHV's to ready great WHQL [Windows Hardware Quality Labs] qualified graphics drivers. We can see this today with Intel's inability to ship a compelling full featured 945 graphics driver for Windows Vista.

    That and other messages make it clear that the lowered requirements for the "Vista Capable" designation angered HP and other Microsoft partners.

    Microsoft issued this general statement today on the unsealed e-mails:

    The emails reflect part of an active discussion about how best to implement the Windows Vista Capable program. What the e-mails don't show is the comprehensive education campaign Microsoft led through retailers, manufacturers, the press, and our own Website. The campaign armed consumers with the information they needed to choose a PC that would run the version of Windows Vista that fit their budget and their computing needs.

    Throughout this process, Microsoft employees raised concerns and addressed issues with the intent to make this program better for our business partners and valuable for consumers. That's the sort of exchange we want to encourage. And in the end, we believe we succeeded in achieving both objectives.

    Ultimately, we provided choices to consumers, giving different options at various price-points to meet their needs. In tandem, we implemented a comprehensive education campaign through retailers, manufacturers, the press, and our own Website. This campaign gave consumers the information they needed to choose an affordable computer that would run the version of Windows Vista that best fit their lifestyle.

    Update, 6 p.m.: Retailers too were irked by Microsoft's "Vista Capable" campaign.

    In a Feb. 23 2006 e-mail, Robin Leonard, a Microsoft employee, wrote that Wal-Mart is "extremely disappointed in the fact that the standards were lowered and feel like customer confusion will ensue. They would like to see Microsoft reconsider the program and allow for the use of 2 different logos; one that is strictly a Windows Vista Home Basic Capable, and the other Windows Vista Capable."

    She continued, "Please give this some consideration; it would be a lot less costly to do the right thing for the customer than to spend dollars on the back end trying to fix the problem."

    A day later, Leonard wrote that Wal-Mart had gone directly to Hewlett Packard and asked the company to "try and affect their production lines for the Spring assortment as much as possible and pull the logo from the base unit."

    In response, on Feb. 27, Steve Schiro, a Microsoft corporate vice president, home and retail division, wrote that "this feedback has been consistent from all retailers around the world."

    P-I reporter Joseph Tartakoff contributed to this post.

    Posted by at February 27, 2008 3:40 p.m.
    Categories: , ,
    Comments
    #102573

    Posted by fletc3her at 2/27/08 5:30 p.m.

    Seems like this helps the case a lot. Microsoft made decisions based not on consumers ability to get the full Vista experience, but based on the needs of Intel to be able to sell the older chipset without people knowing that it was obsolete as far as Vista was concerned. The "education" angle is pretty silly because it undermines the point of having a Vista compatibility logo at all.

    But, Microsoft demonstrated very clearly with the "Plays for Sure" campaign and lack of Zune compatibility that they don't really invest anything in these programs except for marketing. They do not back up their consumer eduction with engineering to fulfill the promises. I can't see any excuse for Zune not being a "Plays for Sure" device.

    #102593

    Posted by Bigmouth at 2/27/08 6:09 p.m.

    Thanks MS, its been a great year! The Demand for XP is awesome, and my bottom line was great. So Far no one is clamoring for me to build with Vista!!!! THANKS Again!

    #102626

    Posted by TriplePac at 2/27/08 7:42 p.m.

    I thought I dodged a bullet by waiting for the "real" Vista instead of "capable". HA! My new laptop is exactly what was refered to in one of the correspondences; a stupid e-mail machine, & not a very good one at that. Updates from MS or the Laptop mfr, Itunes, adobe, & many others are bogged down & are bogging down the laptop in turn. Autodesk won't even make a lower end CAD program for it. Yesterday, it started an update I didn't even want to initiate on shut-down so I had to walk to my car & drive off with this stupid laptop running in my hand to get to work. Is MS trying to get me fired? And yes, I have contacted MS. "Not our fault, see mfr " they say... My home unit is XP & doin' just fine.

    #102676

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/27/08 11:18 p.m.

    Great - MS's solution - don't fix the bad programming - just require cutting edge hardware so it won't be as sluggish?

    She continued, "Please give this some consideration; it would be a lot less costly to do the right thing for the customer than to spend dollars on the back end trying to fix the problem."

    #102692

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 1:28 a.m.

    Meanwhile, Apple's OS X 10.5 Leopard just keeps purring along

    #102708

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 4:38 a.m.

    I'm very much a fan of the developer tools put out by MS, but I've come very close to picking up my Vista computer and throwing it out the window on several occasions. I got so tired of it constantly running something in the background and me not being able to stop it, that I punched the machine the other day. Yes, I know, not terribly intelligent, but man does Vista frustrate me. It hangs all the time, FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON. I could go on, let's just say that when using Vista you feel like MS just didn't really care whether or not it works. Maybe the Developer Division can start making the OS?

    #102731

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 8:17 a.m.

    It's really a shame that Apple didn't take advantage of MS Vista by making OSX available on entry level computers. Entry level meaning $600-$1,200 machine with a reasonable video card. Unfortunately, they only sell high end laptops, laptops with crappy video cards, or massive overkill computers with quad core processors at ~$3,000.

    Mr. Jobs, sell me a computer (without an attached monitor) for $1,000 - $1,500. I want OSX.

    #102739

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 9:27 a.m.

    We use linux at home and linux with lts (linux terminal server) at work. This saved us thousands of dollars in software and we can use machines even xp or the new osx can not run on. That also saved money in not have to purchase new hardware. Scanners, printers videocams, and etc all work under linux for us. Since we have converted our networking equipment to open source based systems throughput of the network and the internet has increased dramatically. If we need to access windows software we have a citrix server setup. Software for linux is so powerful, we never really use that server. It will be converted to a linux media server (internally created audio and visual training content) available to any employee with net access.

    #102741

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 9:30 a.m.

    TO THE COMMENT ABOVE ASKING JOBS FOR CHEAPER COMPUTER... its there buddy and its called mac mini

    #102745

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 9:50 a.m.

    - I want OSX.

    Then buy a mac. Part of why they work so well is that the hardware choices are highly constrained. I agree that a Mac Mini is what you want.

    Also, this comment form is stupid to reject a message for using an angle bracket to mark quoted text.

    #102758

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 10:24 a.m.

    The problem with buying a Mac is that the lack of choice is TOO severe. For example, the built-in graphics in the Mac mini aren't just underpowered, they're garbage. Quartz Extreme doesn't even work with it.

    I like OS X also, and recently bought an iMac 24" because my desire for a more powerful Mac than my mini outweighed my desire for a standalone unit (which Apple doesn't offer unless you go to the Mac Pro.) But I would've much preferred a midrange minitower that I could then handpick my own accessories for.

    #102762

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 10:32 a.m.

    I've switched my whole family to Ubuntu Linux. 5 laptops with Ubuntu. Not having to deal with spyware, anti-virus, or needing to defrag has been great. Add/remove is really cool too, package management is amazing... You can install many software at once, just tick the boxes, have it automatically get security updates, and auto upgrade with the next OS release. Not to mention you do not have to buy a new machine, unless you want it. No b.s. activation codes, no you must by this model of computer to use it.

    For those who think Vista is "okay", you may want to google cost of vista content protection. It is why Linux was my top choice, other OS's feel like I'm handcuffed.

    #102765

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 10:40 a.m.

    I use Linux (Fedora) desktops, at home and at work. They work very well. Linux keeps getting more capable, fast, while Microsoft is throwing away its only advantage: Compatibility with legacy hardware and software. Give Linux a try; it has "grown up" by leaps and bounds.

    #102767

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 10:47 a.m.

    Quick, someone notify the astroturfers to come here to defend MS.

    #102769

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 10:50 a.m.

    Then you don't want Apple. Apple sells A piece of software that operates their hardware.

    I don't know your use, but the Mac Mini is good enough for most people. It certianly plays WoW fine.
    Certainly better the any other comparable system at the price point.

    Why don't you go to Sony and tell them you want a TV you can hand pick the parts for? It's the same thing.
    Apple is not a PC in that you don't piece one together, you buy the package. What you want is not what Apple will ever do.

    Man, I bet you ahve fun going to the Porshe dealer and complaining that they are not as cheap as a Kia. Then whine on how it should be as cheap and that they are stupid for not making one as cheap.

    #102774

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 11:07 a.m.

    Last week I had to downgrade a new laptop here at work to XP. Vista just wouldn't get on the domain...as well as a lot of other problems. Took all day to get XP installed, the 91 updates (was 89 just recently), Antivirus installed, Office and all that other stuff.

    In the time between patch install and reboots of XP, I fully installed Ubuntu 8.04 (still a beta!) on another computer, updated it, and had it running with the Compiz themes just fine. Compiz is they "eyecandy" that Aero wanted to be - but with a fraction of the hardware requirements of Vista and at zero cost.

    #102777

    Posted by Will in Seattle at 2/28/08 11:15 a.m.

    So, basically, MSFT chose to screw the consumers by helping Intel make their quarterly earnings.

    This is why many of us have been ditching WinVista and going with Mac or Linux implementations instead.

    Decisions have consequences.

    #102784

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 11:25 a.m.

    For example, the built-in graphics in the Mac mini aren't just underpowered, they're garbage. Quartz Extreme doesn't even work with it.

    That's just blatantly false. The Mac Mini right here at my desk, with the Intel GMA 950, supports Quartz Extreme & Core Image.

    #102788

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 11:39 a.m.

    *yawn* Get used to paying the early adopter penalty. Learn a little bit about your computer. The third poster whining about an automatic update, guess what, you can control updates. It is not Microsoft's fault you did not take it off the defaults.

    I do agree though that Microsoft has a horrible time integrating its own products. Zune is a great example of them throwing away all the technology they have and making new stuff up. Why use Windows Media Player when you can write your own, incompatible with everything else(including last.fm) player? Or the 360 and Media Center. You have to use WMP11 to play your Xvid videos on the 360, Media Center on the 360 still does not support them.

    Microsoft: Stop letting your developers innovate in their own little bubbles. Make them use your existing, well established technology before they run off and get on a "Not Invented Here(in my office)" high.

    #102792

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 11:50 a.m.

    Given the absurd hardware requirements, broken APIs and drivers, and deceptive/abusive marketing tactics, Microsoft just died on the professional desktop. Windows7 will be far worse than Vista, because it will have the long awaited Palladium kernel, giving full covert access and control of the computer to Microsoft, its business partners, and the U.S. Federal government. (Google search "palladium drm" for details).

    The handwriting is on the wall. Developing markets are choosing Open Office above Microsoft Office. Asia is dumping Microsoft in favor of native Asian language versions of Linux. And the EU has started enforcing laws against Microsoft's core business model (blatant corporate crime). As long as painfully ignorant people continue to believe that "more expensive is always better" and that "computers ARE Microsoft", the company will survive. But it has peaked and has nowhere to go but down, down, down...

    #102793

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 11:54 a.m.

    So I bought a brand new Dell m1530, ah what a sweet little beast it is, and it had Vista on it. I spent the evening playing with it and was SHOCKED at just how bad it was. Vista is a monumental piece of garbage, IMHO. Explorer.exe is CONSTANTLY thrashing the hard drive--hmmm... I wonder what that does to it's longevity--opening up a file browser window takes forever to look at files because Vista's doing all this DRM crap in the background. Eve would barely run. So I loaded XP on the box and was completely blown away by how much faster Eve ran.

    Vista = sad.
    XP = bad but stable.
    OS/X = Mr. Jobs you are a god.

    Microsoft, will you PLEASE just figure it out?

    #102801

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 12:10 p.m.

    It really isn't fair to put all the blame on Microsoft. The accessories manufacturers were slow to put out updated drivers or any product support for Vista at all. Why do this? So they could sell a brand new piece of hardware instead of updating the old one.

    As far as the 915 chipset goes, You should do your homework as a consumer. The 915 chipset is mostly for Pentium 4s and Celerons. The Celerons are not meant to be even a mid level choice. they are a bargain basement chip. So obviously all of Vista's features are not going to work. Celerons are supposed to be for email machines.

    Maybe Microsoft should have been proactive in telling people that Vista is basically designed for dual core systems. My personal rule of thumb has always been to buy a new computer for a new operating system or do some serious upgrading.

    If you are not tech savvy you should not buy new technology items when they first come out. Almost all new tech items have a rough start. SP1 for Vista will be out to the public in a few months. Most people will be very happy after it is installed.

    #102811

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 12:36 p.m.

    Just install Linux...

    #102816

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 12:46 p.m.

    "Most people will be very happy after it is installed."

    If their machine still boots. There is a reason its finished but not available yet, and a reason it has been recalled.

    #102819

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 12:48 p.m.

    In asking people to 'do their homework' about the 915 chipset, you're entirely missing the point - that Microsoft chose to advertise these machines as being capable of running Vista, which was obviously blatantly false.

    At a time when a computer is reaching the status of a 'household device' there are many purchasers who simply don't have the knowledge to realise when a vendor is being unrealistic in their promises.

    #102822

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 12:49 p.m.

    our family switched to ubuntu and fedora and have never looked back.

    why pay for bad software when there is free and much much better software out there.

    hopefully corporations will get some sense and maybe save some jobs and dump windows and go with linux. if any other facet of the business sold them what microsoft sold these corporations they would drop them like a hot potato - go figure.

    windows software is just plain bad there is no way to sugar coat it. why pay for it. I have other things to do with my money.

    #102823

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 12:49 p.m.

    I love reading this stuff. Someone says Mac is better and he or she gets ridiculed as some sort of boob by the MS apologists. A nasty bunch those windoze experts.

    They act as if computing is serious business and if you are looking for fun you are an idiot.

    I don't know. In 1983 I started with an Apple IIc and to this day have never used a windoze machine. Take the leap.

    #102824

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 12:50 p.m.

    There was yet another factor working against you, Microsoft. You hired offshored tech support drones to manage beta testing. The drones quickly figured that basically, all they needed to do was to ignore all bug reports from testers until the next build was ready, and then close all reports in a scope with "please try it with the new build". This travesty was repeated with every build until the release. Beta testing thus was fake at 90%+, and as the result, the quality of the released product was the same as of XP at some early alpha stages.

    #102826

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 12:52 p.m.

    wow vista, the windows millenium headache all over again

    #102829

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 12:56 p.m.

    Download any version of Free Linux.
    Your PC will be fast, and Virus free!!
    I use OpenSuSe

    #102838

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 1:09 p.m.

    To the bloke who's saying we should shut up and buy what Apple's offering: I say nuts. Jobs isn't an archangel and it's possible for Apple to make mistakes.

    I switch to Mac buy buying a used beige Powermac and upgrading it, because I don't want an all-in-one and can't afford a high end tower. When the Mini came out it was not crippled by comparison with the iMac of the time the way the Mini of today is, so I upgraded... but today's Mini with it's horrible Intel GPU needs a "Mini Pro" big bother.

    Do you sense a theme here - Mac and Windows users both suffering because of Apple and Microsoft's deals with Intel? We need to quit sniping at each other and pay attention to the real source of the problem.

    #102851

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 1:30 p.m.

    As someone who beta tested Vista and was given a copy for said beta testing,I am sorry,but it is junk.And for the above "require a dual core" poster,you should NOT need a dual core cpu to simply run an OS.What's next,"Oh,you actually want to run applications? Then you'll need a quad".My testing machine,which is screaming on XP SP3 right now,is as follows-Intel Celeron 3.06Ghz,2Gb DDR400,Nvidia 6200 256Mb,and dual 200Gb hdd.On XP I'm averaging less than 7% cpu and less than 300mb of ram,and that is with defrag running in the background.

    On Vista the same machine was LUCKY to run at less than 50% cpu,I was using over 1Gb on the desktop,and the hard drives thrashed so much I was afraid they'd burn up.Networking would just die or slow to a crawl,forcing a reboot,simple file copies required command line if you wanted it done in under a week,and the pc was freeze for 15-35 seconds just doing nothing.

    As someone who had WinME I can honestly that WinME was better.At least with WinME I could go for a single day without a reboot,and when WinME was running it was actually useful.IMHO Vista is an afterbirth forced on the public by MSFT so they would have a new product to sell-nothing more.

    The simple fact that the times I've seen Vista running halfway decent was on machines with dual cores and over 3gb of ram simply show how truly broken it is.An OS is there to run APPLICATIONS,not to take the entire machine merely to run itself.If MSFT doesn't want to end up killed by OSX and Linux,they had better hope they can get Win7 out the door by '09 and make sure it is not a resource hogging bugfest like Vista.

    #102853

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 1:32 p.m.

    Vista is much faster than XP on newer hardware (i.e. a fast dual-core or quad-core, an 8600GT video card or better, 2gb memory or better). On anything less than that, XP generally runs better. My recommendations to others follow those general guidelines... if getting anything less that the hardware specified, I tell them to get XP instead of Vista. Otherwise, get Vista.

    #102855

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 1:33 p.m.

    Interesting that the 915 chipset won't run under Vista. Linux runs just fine, and you can even use the 3D desktop, Compiz.

    The only reason you need a Core 2 duo, 1G system with 512M video ram is for the horrendous code bloat. Nothing more.

    I once tested Vista and Linux on the same hardware, just limiting the Ram and not using swap. Vista needed 512M to boot, more if you wanted to do something like play a video clip or browse the web. Linux did everything I wanted on the same platform with 256M. Plus, it was 3x faster to boot.

    #102859

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 1:37 p.m.

    All of you complaining about moving back to XP. Come on. Really... I've been using Virtual PC for 7 months or so and it works great. I have full compatibility with all my older software (mostly games). I'm also using the 64bit version of Vista which isn't perfect, but I do enjoy it. Bear in mind that when XP came out we had these same type of problems and they were eventually fixed (most problems at least). If you don't like the issues, don't be an early adopter. There are vendors still selling XP based computers.

    #102860

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 1:40 p.m.

    Microsoft has built an inferior product since the original Windows. Im old enough to remember all of the time people spent on the phone getting help feeling inferior and stupid when in fact the OS was flawed from the getgo. To the diehard Microsoft fans your getting what you deserve. BTW my Apple with its unix heart is rock solid and trouble free.

    #102861

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 1:40 p.m.

    "Sorry we said that these low-end computers would run Vista, but Intel had to sell some motherboards..."

    Unbelievable.

    I suspect a lot of people will skip Vista and wait for whatever's next.

    As far as the "Wait! the first service pack will make things better!" argument.... using customers as beta testers isn't a great way to keep them loyal.

    #102862

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 1:40 p.m.

    I have not heard many good things about Vista SP1, so don't hold your breath on it being a cure all. Vista is clearly too large and too bloated. Yeah, we say that every new MS OS. I viewed a diagram comparison of system calls in Linux and XP for an email. The XP diagram was an unfathomable, untraceable, plate of spaghetti. No wonder it's so hard to secure. Vista is certainly worse.

    My point is, I would love to see MS rebuild Windows 7 from the bottom up. Even read an article recently that held such promise. Backward compatibility would be achieved running the 'legacy' application via a built in Virtual Machine, using one core of a multi-core chip. Now there is something that gets me excited. Vista, on the other hand, has only given me, and many others, a strong reason to give Linux serious thought (I'm running both Ubuntu and Fedora).

    Microsoft needs to look past Vista and step it up with Windows 7.

    #102868

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 1:52 p.m.

    The Mac mini starts at around $800. Admittedly, without a monitor, keyboard, or mouse.

    I hear a lot of people complaining about the price of Macintosh gear who manage to spend more on Wintel gear. These are people who start the cycle with a low-end computer, costing around $500-$1k, and then take it in for support numerous times over the next two-three years, both for hardware service, for software support ("my system was compromised by millions of viruses and I can't clean it; I need a re-install - and I don't have a backup of my files."), and for hardware upgrades, until at the end of that time, they've paid 10-30% more than it would have cost to get a Macintosh with a service plan that would've covered all of their support visits (not counting the hardware upgrades that the Macbook would've already had.)

    Personally, I'd prefer having Ubuntu on my box, but that could just be me. I will admit to typing this on a PowerBook G4 - but the systems under the desk are all Linux of one sort or another.

    #102873

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 1:56 p.m.

    Microsoft has proven yet again that it cannot be trusted.

    Let's hope this time it is not just the Europeans that punish it financially.

    #102878

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 2:03 p.m.

    If you read the full text, you will find choice comments like these, referring to the "Vista Capable" program and lowering the graphics requirements:

    "We really botched this."

    "We are caving to Intel... We are allowing Intel to drive our consumer experience."

    "It might be a mistake... We might be able to thread the needle here if we make 'capable' just related to 'old' type hardware."

    When will people learn not to put such things in writing? Happy litigation, MS.

    #102886

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 2:10 p.m.

    I am MS certified. I love my new mac...and my XP machine that still works like a charm.

    #102893

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 2:13 p.m.

    Vista is so slow due to the DRM. That's what's causing a lot of the disk thrashing, the slow data copies, etc. M$ decided they liked the MPAA, RIAA, and BSA more than their customers and that is who they now serve.

    Yes, slow (or no) driver releases also are to blame. But the Vista product is fatally flawed as it uses your computer resources to constantly check up on what you are doing and possibly prevent you from doing it.

    How is that for finding the WOW of Vista?

    #102897

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 2:24 p.m.

    "Just install Linux..."

    Which linux? and how do you plan on getting a copy? The easiest versions to use are distributions with what are called Live-cds. MEPIS is well known this feature. Their user community also offers a great manual and wiki.

    But the problem comes in that you will have to pay for the cd to come to your house (+ $17) or download a copy.

    Another suggestion for one who wants it free would be to go with Ubuntu. They also offer through snail-mail and for download.

    Bear in mind, no one distribution was created equal, so try many after you try these. Even today.

    Or go to your local computer tech shop and just demand Linux. Beware of the Suse.

    Hope all goes well, future Xista users.

    #102917

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 3:09 p.m.

    The MS Astroturfers ARE here, they've just been trained to preface their remarks with

    "I dislike MS just as much as everybody, but"

    Then they go on to plant and reinforce the memes I'd rather not repeat. The purpose of these memes seems to be "don't let the herd stampede."

    It's okay for people to like Apple or Linux a little bit as long as these alternatives remain marginal.

    Okay, I'll mention one astroturfer meme: drivers are a problem if you switch to Linux. Nobody wants to experience driver problems! So people stick with Windows. Surprise! The above email exchange reveals that ... wait for it ... drivers are a problem if you switch to Vista!

    #102928

    Posted by Motormouse at 2/28/08 3:23 p.m.

    To the drooling evolutionary U-turn who said: It really isn't fair to put all the blame on Microsoft. Non techies should not invest in new tech. Bunk. VISTA READY certification is FOR the nontechies. They don't expect to be lied to by the EVIL EMPIRE! (cue DARTH VADER theme music). Mr. so called, unregistered user, I know who you are, and if you were here I'd KIK UR **S!

    #102929

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 3:27 p.m.

    I remember in a documentary 12 years ago Steve Ballmer said MS OS's had been held back by the obsession with K-LOCS, or how many lines of code a project had. Their argument was "isn't it better it we can do the same task with less code?"

    One of the boasts when Vista was released was that XP had 40 million lines of code, but Vista had 50 million. Where did it all go wrong.

    I've switched to Ubuntu, and it's all down to Vista. If XP had never been replaced I'd still be enjoying an inferior experience. I'm grateful MS released Vista, because it's allowed me to break free of them. :)

    #102936

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 3:48 p.m.

    Got to keep you MAC guys honest too...But your OS X 10.5 was from from perfect when it first released...Firewall weaknesses, new-Install boot hangs, there are a number of industry standard applications that do not work under Leopard, etc...

    Now don't get me wrong. I'm not very happy with Vista either. Of course, I remember being unhappy with XP when it first came out, and Win95... So MS sucks at implementing new OS's... What's new!

    Don't like it don't buy it...Serves you right for running right out and being Microsoft's Guinea pigs!

    #102938

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 3:54 p.m.

    I was getting pretty burned out on computers a few years ago...party since I was working as a 'v-' at the home of Vista. I then discovered Linux and it's all fun again!

    I've also been a loyal customer of the MS Flight Simulator for 20+ years, and a Beta tester for Vista (I have a full Ultimate version now, which was installed only once).

    I had Flight Sim X installed on XP, but heard about the great things it would do in Vista. So I installed it on the other partition. "This product has already been activated" was what I was greeted with.
    Thanks Microsoft, you just lost a 20 year customer - the FS runs like crap anyway since it takes so long to load even on my "Vista Ready" computer with a 3.5 rating on the Vista Experience Rating. Bleah!

    Back to Ubuntu and Apple....whew!

    #102945

    Posted by Motormouse at 2/28/08 4:06 p.m.

    To the people who are saying 'You should have know better than to buy a new M$ OS.' I am in thunderuss agreement. I don't feel one ounce of pity for people who should have know better. But this topic is about BOLD FACED LIES to the vulnerable. This is one M$ lie that is truly deplorable, even for M$.

    #102963

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 4:56 p.m.

    It's funny how history repeats itself with every MS product cycle. Back in 2002, everyone was whining about how MS had just released Win2000, and that XP was slower and more bloated (because of the UI), and people were going to stick to 2000. Same thing happened in 2000 when Win2000 came out, and everyone complained about how the hardware requirements were too high, and that it was slow (because of the NT kernel) compared to Win98SE.

    In the end, people ended up jumping to XP, and MS managed to make it a decent OS (after 2 service packs). The same thing will probably happen with Vista.

    #102965

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 5:02 p.m.

    I jumped to a Mac mini in January - no with no problems. Future jumpers, NB: Macintosh may love you for your money, Windows loves you for your time.

    #102973

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 5:32 p.m.

    So, some people hate Vista. Some love OSX. Some Love Linux.
    I'm happily running Vista in my pre Vista laptop. At first it was painfully slow and unreliable, but then I discovered that it was HP drivers (oddly, drivers published to "solve performance and reliability problems") that was causing the issues. I just removed them and now my VIsta machine runs just fine. Yes, it had its issues (especially, slow file copying) but with SP1, even with the beta, it got much better.
    Are there other alternatives? Sure they are. If you are willing to be limited in software and hardware choice but want an elegant system, OSX looks good. If you want to hack around and not spend a dime on software, Linux is great. But all this Vista trashing sounds like fanatic trolling to me. I use Vista in three machines (one of them with the Intel 915 chipset, obviously without Aero), XP on one, and all of them run just fine.
    Peace to all.

    #102976

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 5:36 p.m.

    Always bought Mac's.

    Used PC's now and then.

    Had to fix my friends XP machine, it was a nightmare.

    And you all say vista is worse than XP?

    My God.

    #102977

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 5:39 p.m.

    Question: if I wanted to buy a machine with the new security capabilities in Vista, but didn't care about the fancy stuff, all you MS bashers are suggesting that I should have bought a machine labeled by Microsoft as Non Vista Capable and then attempted to install Vista?
    What was Microsoft supposed to do? Lie about the computers ability to run Vista, saynng they were NOT capable of running Vista, even if they were?
    Microsoft said that the machines were capable of running Vista (actually, the OEMs did, but based on MS specs) and that was accurate. Those machines were able to run Vista, and for many uses they were OK. For some of my needs Vista Basic is just fine.
    Even if they discuss if it was the right thing to do (from a business point of view) doesn't mean Microsoft fooled anyone in this aspect.

    And no, I don't want Linux. There are several reaons why it's not for me. If you can't imagine such reasons, it's your limited view of the world that's causing you problems.

    #102985

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 6:10 p.m.

    Long time pc user, w/pcnetwork, some linux boxes hanging off it runing vmware and W2k... and an xp machine. After what I heard, vista, did not want to go there.

    Bought a 24" Imac. Like it. Great resolution. Stuff works.

    Use open office, google apps. Dumped the MS office trial software asap. No registry BS.

    Go visit an apple store and play with it. Warning: It may suck you in.

    #102986

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 6:12 p.m.

    PS -- File shares and sees the shared drives on the windows machines just fine...

    #103000

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 7:25 p.m.

    Wow! The MS astroturfers really are on the defensive! The best they can offer is "well eventually it will be fixed and you have no choice anyway", with a small dose of "Linux is waaaay too hard to even get, much less install."

    Meanwhile back in the real world, Linux is easier to install than any Microsoft operating system ever has been, and has better hardware support out of the box than any Microsoft operating system ever has. Imagine a world where you tired old machine runs surprisingly fast and is stone reliable. Could you learn to live without viruses, mail worms, spyware, planned obsolescence, and pay-per-click price tags on software?

    Download the current Ubuntu Live CD from the Canonical website, and burn it to CD with Nero or whatever. Reboot with the CD in the drive, and check to see if your sound, video, network, and USB work in the stripped down "Live CD" operating system. If so (odds are 99% for a desktop machine), proceed with a real install, using the same CD.

    You can partition your existing hard drive, or (better option IMO) put in a second hard drive and install to that. All the advice and instructions you might need are readily available on the Ubuntu website and/or via Google search.

    Why Ubuntu? Because it is the most popular and well supported "totally user friendly" Linux out there. Answers to your questions are a Google search away, new programs and bug fixes are always promptly available for Ubuntu, and you can safely bet that Ubuntu will be around for a long, long time.

    #103001

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 7:25 p.m.

    I have an Acer laptop that I bought at WalMart for $400. It has Vista Home Basic, and the video chipset is the Intel 945, therefore no 'Aero' for me - ever. Too bad, since I was hoping to see what all the hype was about.

    Not too bad, though. This is my first new 'puter with Windows on it since 1998. Starting back then, I taught myself to use Linux, and I simply love the control and speed it gives me. I knew I'd not really be using Vista on this system, I just wanted to try it before repartitioning and installing Mepis Linux. Without the new 'Windows fanciness' being available for this supposedly compatible hardware, I didn't get to see or try it...

    But my Linux install here - it runs Compiz-Fusion just fine, when I need to use a 3D desktop during heavy graphic/web development sessions. Even with the default half Gig of RAM it ran fine. And to be honest, from what I've seen and read about Aero, I think Compiz-Fusion has even more "gee whiz" to it anyway...

    Windows is old tech, monolithic, cumbersome, and has become a dinosaur that is simply not genetically capable of keeping up with the fast-evolving world around it. Linux won't be on everyones desktop this year or next, or maybe even for several, I'm not claiming that. Even so, you are seeing the beginnings of its widespread adoption by non-geeks, folks who aren't power users, just plain people who have become fed up with the sub-standard MS OS, and all the attendant security problems and hassle it takes to keep that OS running.

    And it ain't gonna get better for Windows users, ever.

    #103003

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 7:34 p.m.

    I'm the author of comment #103001.

    Regarding install:

    Vista was preinstalled on this laptop. Even so, after booting, it took well over 3 hours for me to get it up and running, taking off bloatware/crapware, installing the basic A/V, firewall, anti-spy/mal/adware. After that much time, I didn't even bother with the mandatory Windows updates. As a matter of fact, after all that, I haven't even booted my Vista install in over 4 months (maybe 5 or 6, I forget).

    As soon as I was done with the above Win-mess, I repartitioned the hard drive, and installed Mepis Linux along with an additional ~225M of apps (office, graphics, web development, scientific, games, etc...) I downloaded from the net.

    Total time for all this "hard" Linux installation work - from repartitioning, doing the Mepis install from LiveCD, and then adding all my favorite Free apps: 1 hour, 20 minutes.

    Go figure.

    Linux rocks.

    :)

    #103009

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 7:58 p.m.

    I am not a sootsayer, just a mild mannered PC handyman working in the trenches - small businesses and home/home office users. None of my clients has a good thing to say about Vista, most want me to downgrade them, or "make it work like XP", so I turn off everything I possibly can in Vista and it runs OK -- overall, it is cheaper for them to have me downgrade. I predict that SP3 will breath new life into XP -- no more 100 updates from SP2 --- whoo hoo! MS should "perfect" XP .... I'm sure it CAN be done .... and bifurcate its desktop OS's (between 'functional' and 'bling')...

    #103027

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 8:41 p.m.

    Yes ... OS X is pure perfection. The way Apple built the system from the ground up. Oh wait, I forgot that I am a 20 year IT professional who deals with XP, Vista, OS X and OS X server on a daily basis. Oh yeah, I remember now (from earlier today and almost every other work day) that the plagerized version of BSD that is OS X causes me more problems in a week than I have with Windows servers and work stations in a year.

    So yeah, Vista is slow and has problems. Doesnt mean you should waste your money on overpricing Apple hardware and the unintuative mess that is OS X on the desktop. Stay with XP for another year and when Microsof gets there act together on Vista, it will be much more stable and easy to use than the various LINUX GUIs, OS X, etc.

    #103028

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 8:42 p.m.

    I beg to differ with those who say that XP had an equally troubled launch as has Vista. When I made the switch from Win2K Professional to XP, I was amazed at how much faster XP loaded, and was quite pleased with application and OS performance once it was up.

    Now I have a client's laptop with Vista Basic / 512MB RAM and it is so unbelievably slow at doing anything that I told her I wouldn't waste my time (= her money) on it until she bought more RAM.

    #103029

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 8:48 p.m.

    I just bought my first mac! My AU$3700 Sony laptop is a pile of junk, my new Asus D22 + Vista just tipped me over the edge. I'm going with a company that will take responsibility for the system, not just SW or HW.

    #103030

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 8:50 p.m.

    What industry standard programs aren't working under Leopard?

    #103033

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 9:07 p.m.

    Linux advocates, let's not be too hasty. All operating systems are susceptible to malware. The kinds of vulnerabilities may change from system to system, but shouting "linux is virus free!" is just as deceptive as MS's suggested hardware claims.

    I love linux and free (libre) software, but it certainly is no panacea.

    Linux sucks less.

    #103040

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 9:38 p.m.

    iMac 20" Aluminum with Boot Camp and VMware Fusion running Windows XP. I'm a gamer and some games are only Windows based so when I need it I can boot directly to Windows with Boot Camp and it runs like a champ! When I just need to get at simpler/non-game programs I start up the Windows partition with VMware fusion. I have not touched, nor will I touch Vista. If I want to handle a steaming pile of crap I will go change my kids diaper.

    #103049

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 10:04 p.m.

    Compared to Windows, Linux IS a panacea.

    #103053

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 10:10 p.m.

    Vista has been a great stimulus for our office to transfer over to Linux. We have saved money and frustration by buying fairly simple machines and installing Ubuntu Linux. The cost savings have been considerable and our staffers are getting used to the Linux apps and Open Office. Vista may be the biggest boost that Linux has had in years, thanks to the "geniuses" at M$ ;-) Bobby B

    #103054

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 10:11 p.m.

    Ubuntu(or any Linux distro) or OS X are your choices. Vista will be good with SP2.

    #103058

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 10:23 p.m.

    "They act as if computing is serious business and if you are looking for fun you are an idiot."

    Heh, computing is serious business, to the tune of billions a year. 50$ an hour consulting fees are serious business also.

    I certainly will not defend Vista, as I am thoroughly unimpressed, but as an actual professional who ran an AARP - that's right, providing warranty service for AppleCare and those sleek shiny Macs, I can tell you I HATE Apple, with a passion.

    Remember OS X is, under it all, OpenBSD - a linux kernel variant. The OS is great - the problem is the closed nature of the hardware architecture. Apple is at least as evil as Microsoft - however Microsoft pushed for open hardware standards (alienating IBM) which was of far more benefit to the consumer than Apple's idea of selling little black boxes.

    I can't stand zealots on either side - I run Ubuntu on my work systems and deal with whatever idiotic solution my customers have implemented - I will tell you though that Apple seems to breed a peculiar kind of ignorant fanaticism amongst its userbase.

    #103065

    Posted by Montana Brand Dvlmt at 2/28/08 10:48 p.m.

    Intel just made major mistake #2. They convinced MS to allow them to claim their stock of chips would work well when they actually would not in order to sell the inventory. Shame on Intel for that sort of consumer deception and shame on MS for allowing it. Their first major mistake occurred about 15 years ago when they refused to stand behind that chip that had the very rare math miscalculation. That was when AMD got their foothold as PC makers wanted a backup supplier as it became clear Intel couldn't be trusted. Gaining consumer trust through consistent ethical behavior is the way win. The only way.

    #103070

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 11:24 p.m.

    Thanks to the Vista debacle, half my clients went from Xp to Vista to Linux. They're all very happy now, and I am too, since my sysadmin tasks are much easier now. thanks MS!

    #103075

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/28/08 11:53 p.m.

    This is a typical Microsoft practice, but rarely will you find out about it. Microsoft have no passion, no heart. Don't fool yourself, you have options!

    #103079

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 12:27 a.m.

    There is no accountability within MS for these screwups. One hand washes the other so they can continue to afford the mortgage payments on the house in Sammamish that they overpaid for.

    #103080

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 12:43 a.m.

    I've been using Vista to develop software on for the last 6 months and haven't had that many headaches. I even play all the games I could on XP.
    Guess other ppl don't know how to use Vista properly, I prefer it more than XP. Sure it uses more memory and CPU but it is far more responsive.
    Use whatever OS you feel comfortable with.

    #103083

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 1:03 a.m.

    Vista runs great on my quad core (overclocked from 2.4 to 3.02ghz) with 8GB of ram. It's indistinguishable from XP running on my old $400 computer from 2001 with XP, and less ram than I have in my video card, or linux running on my 4-year-old laptop.

    There doesn't seem to be any major gain in functionality with Vista, but it sits on 750mb of ram and 25% of my processor just to run a web browser.

    But wait! We have transparent windows! We also have "creative" new interfaces, where menus have disappeared, controls behave inconsistently, and hotkeys have been changed or removed without reason. Novice users are confused and experienced users are p**ed right off. Whoever allowed this monster to get out the door needs to revisit their first-year software engineering courses...

    #103085

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 1:30 a.m.

    @"Microsoft have no passion, no heart. Don't fool yourself, you have options!"

    Does anyone really believe Apple does have passion and heart? LOL! LOL! LOL! ... they are a corp like any other, just doing different marketing.

    #103086

    Posted by Alanuno at 2/29/08 1:38 a.m.

    Maybe this is Microsoft's gift to the world, that some may find liberation, (or enlightenment or something).

    #103088

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 2:30 a.m.

    Six years and only a small fraction of the current stock of MS Windows (TM) users have upgraded to MS Windows Vista, or want to? MS DOS4 again, it sounds like - when I bought my first PC in the early nineties, I was warned against DOS4.

    FWLIW, I did suggest in an open letter to both Gates and Ballmer in 2002, that Microsoft release the MS Win9x and MS WinNT3.x source trees to the Free and Open Source Software community under a suitable license - the BSD license, since both Gates and Ballmer have unreservedly praised that license while vilifying the GPL - and we'd see which - the FOSS community or the Mighty Microsoft Corp itself - came out with a working product first. One that people actually wanted to use ...

    Quite predictably, neither were betting men - or perhaps only when they can prepare the dice or cards beforehand ;) ... but the offer's still open.

    Wesley Parish

    #103089

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 2:48 a.m.

    Why is it that Microsoft are intent on going backawards ?
    I know of 3 people who have bought new computers then upgraded back to XP after none of there hardware worked how it should.

    20 years ago we had Apple Mac's and Commodore Amiga's running with 1Mb of ram 2 floppy drives or a tiny hard drive.
    Applications loaded, ran well (most of the time) and were a doddle to put right if you messed up the OS settings.

    My Windows XP pc with 4GB ram, 256mb of video ram, 120gb hard drive, not many apps installed is slower running than my old Amiga with a hard drive.

    Coder's these days don't seem how to use memory and processor resources. Try giving a Microsoft coder a TRS80 or Apple 2 or maybe Sinclair Spectrum with 48k and seeing how far they get.

    Who on earth thinks it alright for OS to use over 100mb when it is sitting doing nothing without launching any apps ?

    #103090

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 3:06 a.m.

    Hit craigslist for a barely used Mac and move on to get work done. I made the switch last year and laugh at poor folks that were suckered by the Vista Sticker BS. Remember that you can not polish a turd! - sent from my iPhone - Tim R

    #103091

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 3:46 a.m.

    To all those who state "shouldn't be early adopters", "should know better than to buy a new O/S", etc.

    There are a large group of professional developers (ISV's) who must keep up with the latest MS technology due to our customer base. It is very frustrating for developers (maybe more so than end users who have a choice on which O/S to use) as our customers are having negative experiences due to no fault of our own, but can't differentiate between the O/S and the application. We must respond and keep current due to existing support contracts.

    ISV's are often hostage as contracts were written by the client insisting on Windows compatibility due to their enterprise environment. Although things are starting to change (slowly) there is still a huge Wintel base out there for professional developers to serve, regardless of personal preference.

    Regarding Apple, my experience with that platform has paralleled Windows. Very poor developer documentation as well.

    Unix (Linux) would be my preferred platforms in a perfect world.

    #103094

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 5:11 a.m.

    Thanks Steve and co.

    I appreciate it when you guys prove my predictions right. The M$ punters are silenced yet again, and the budgets get adjusted towards open source strategies... again.

    Every time you do a new release, I manage to convert at least 5 users to other products, with Vista I came close to 20.

    Welcome to the real world guys. Here we need more than marketing-speak in order to keep our jobs, so we pick the tools that work.

    Quite a few people will also be thanking you for the pay-raises they'll be getting, when it is revealed that they saved their companies hundreds of thousands by staying away from your products.

    Thank you gents, we do appreciate your lack of care for the customer.

    #103098

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 5:41 a.m.

    hi, i just want to suggest for the people that do not know what compiz is to search videos on google about "compiz" or "ubuntu compiz" and then they will see how much linux had grown

    #103099

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 5:48 a.m.

    www.stonerscolony.com/forum.php?forid=21
    0&forumid=8&myaction=viewtopic


    YAY what a surprise!!! Wait no...We knew that!

    This is really worth a read if you want to see how Microsoft basically didn't give 2 sh**s about the user and well basically anyone who uses there product (again) and went for the "How quick can we get it out?" - "How much money can we make?" - "What pointless features can we use to make Bob, Dick and Jane buy it this time?"

    FaTe - Long Live XP

    #103101

    Posted by devbravo at 2/29/08 6:13 a.m.

    Well I read the instructions on the Box ....
    Install Windows 2000 or Better...
    So I installed SuSe Linux Enterprise Desktop 10.2
    64 bit comes with OpenOffice ....
    No problems with drivers ...

    125.00$ U.S. which gives me THREE years of support!
    All you Windownistas come out of the dark and into the
    light of Linux ...

    #103117

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 7:19 a.m.

    There is a reason why people who by the first release of any MS product "Crash Test Dummies". MS has shown time and time again with almost every major product they've ever shipped that they can't get it right the first time (or in many cases the second or third time). When the Vista release hype was beginning to surge, I told my clients "If you are thinking about buying a new machine in the next 2 years or so, but an XP machine now, it will probably take that long before Vista is stable.

    #103124

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 8:08 a.m.

    I recently picked up a new computer with Vista Premium and after a few days of fighting with it I am seriously considering upgrading to XP.

    As far as Linux is concerned, I would be interested in it as soon as reasonable support of Windows games is implemented (or when the majority of games on the shelf say they include Linux versions). Until that happens, Linux will remain a niche product.

    #103129

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 8:24 a.m.

    Be careful in Redmond - Chairs will be flying around Balmer's board room!

    #103139

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 8:47 a.m.

    MS should have never caved to Intel is the bottom line here. How much kickback money did MS get for doing this for Intel?

    Was it enough to cover the upcoming litigation for screwing consumers with misrepresentation of Vista capability?

    I'm happy with XP and don't ever plan on going to Vista. I'm not into paying for DRM restrictions on anything I use.

    #103190

    Posted by johnnytheman at 2/29/08 11:22 a.m.

    Apple's Leopard OS X 10.5 is Apple's "Vista."

    New users have been plagued by the same sort of idiocy that Vista users have.


    Programs that are long time mainstays on Apple like Adobe.

    Music production technology like Pro Tools - simply DO NOT WORK or BARELY WORK with lots of issues.

    If there is one thing that can be discerned from the comments by the Apple fans who constantly say "switch to Apple" its that they use their Apple for simple stuff like web-surfing, email social networking Etc. That stuff Vista handles quite well.

    The problem is both are super overkills for that kind of work. It's like buying a Ferrari or Porsche to drive 2 blocks to the corner store to buy a quart of milk.

    Anyone who is using it for more is telling the Apple version of Microsoft's Vista tale of whoa and misery.

    If you are an Apple user and have NOT upgraded to Leopard. You really are comparing apples to oranges.

    You want to switch to Apple now, you get Leopard, and it is just as big of a disaster as Vista is for Microsoft.

    Fortunately for Apple, the Vista disaster is many times bigger and hogs the headlines - as it should. It is a major mistake.

    The big mistake Apple made was to copy the Vista mistake, and thus robbing itself of an opportunity to capture disgruntled Vista users who finally decided to give up on the OS.

    They should have stuck with the previous OS during Microsoft's Vista roll-out. If they had they would probably have doubled their market share by now.

    The source of the problem is the widely held belief in technology industry that people are so stupid, that they'll never get any change for the better so there is no reason to make sure it's ready to go before its release.

    Enough people who consider themselves "knowledgeable" have sheepishly allowed the computer companies to turn the insulting excuse that as an "early adapter" you should expect a butt-load of problems, into a compliment for being "ahead of the curve."


    What a joke. Sure all "new things" can be somewhat problematic, but software companies have taken this to new extremes, and as long as people are willing to "accept it as normal" we the public will continue to deal with "not ready for release" releases like Vista and Leopard.

    Linux is great IF you are an "advanced computer user" who is the type who likes to build his own systems, but that's only 5% of the public or so. For the rest, Linux would be their worst nightmare.

    XP is the obvious solution for Microsoft users.

    Now if you hated XP, then try something else, but all OSs have a learning curve.

    #103197

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 11:57 a.m.

    I have to disagree with the above comment in regard to Linux. I'm the poster that switched my family to Ubuntu. My dad is a fellow that on two occasions asked why doesn't the volume work (years back but still!), and had it turned down. He's been running Ubuntu for over a year with just a few questions.

    I'll tell you something, if you haven't tried Linux recently (Even just 4 years ago an install was "difficult"). Try an Ubuntu live CD. On these 5 laptops, everything was configured automatically. That's graphics, audio, wireless, dvd etc etc (DELLs by the way, 2 actually came with Ubuntu.)

    No one has to defrag, virus scan, search for malware. You can install applications with a few clicks. You do not need to scour the web! All apps get security updates, think Windows update but for every app you have installed. With support for in place upgrades (no need to reinstall when the next release is out).

    In my experience the machines are stable. I have never had a machine "lock". Reboots are only required for kernel updates. For software upgrades, you can actually run the software while it's updating, the next time you load it, it's the next version.

    It comes out of the box with an Office Suite, Graphics Editor, DVD burner, Media player, Mail app, Browser (firefox) etc. etc. Several thousand packages are available for on the fly and auto install.

    I claim Linux is actually easier for general users and I've seen it an action. Pre-installed would be even easier, although only a few companies as far as I know, do so.

    Now, if someone is locked into a Windows app, Linux won't be a drop in solution. Wine or virtualization can be used.
    If you have a very specific app or piece of hardware that is Windows only, or you love the latest windows games, then stick to Windows unless you are that tinkering type.

    P.S. Ubuntu can be installed from the live cd, so you can surf the web or play a game during the install. The install procedure is about 7 clicks :)

    Also, to the Apple user that comments OS X can see Windows network machines with no fuss. Same goes for Linux. Both use SAMBA (GPL'd app) =)

    #103271

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 2:16 p.m.

    I totally agree with the guy in the above message!
    Linux used to be a pretty confusing text-based install, but now it goes on just fine in 20 minutes at the most. It's ready to go after you take out the disk and reboot. Network is all set, internet works, sound is there, and all programs mentioned in the above message are ready.

    All my family members got Ubuntu 7.10 CDs and a book for Christmas. I think they have been scared to use it, so I might just have to set up a dual boot to encourage them to try it.
    You don't need to be a techno geek to run Linux anymore like you used to. The GUI is super easy, but if you are a geek, there is plenty of tinkering in the command line that can keep you busy.

    That hole they are digging in Redmond they call a "Parking garage"....it's really a grave. Ha!

    #103288

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 2:43 p.m.

    The Intel and Microsoft duo: Corporate greed at its best.

    They have unashamedly stuck to a profit-maximization policy for decades, which all monopolies do. Our answer must come in the form of awareness. Most consumers are victims without being fully aware, and finally when they do become aware, they realize that during this 'consumer silence' period, these corporations became such arrogant monopolies that they are today.

    This is also true of any other profit-maximizing predators, for example, a large percentage of the doctors out there.

    #103296

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 2:51 p.m.

    People should not be shocked by all this. We've seen this kind of behavior from Microsoft for years.

    This time around the whole affair looks less like the "evil empire's" conniving, and more like a company with no competent management.

    #103423

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 7:12 p.m.

    The more I learn about Vista, the more I love my Linux box! :-) Case in point -- I work as a reference librarian at a Christian college here in St. Louis. I had a student sometime last fall who was having a problem using our Wi-Fi network in the library with his laptop, which was running Vista. I looked for any possible reasons but couldn't find any, so I suggested a reboot.

    I could swear it took roughly 10 minutes between the time I clicked "Shut Down" and the time the Vista desktop had come back up -- and this laptop appeared to be brand-new, no less! That whole procedure shouldn't have taken more than 2 or 3 minutes tops, IMHO.

    On my computer at work, I have XP Professional (not my call to make -- if it were, I'd be running some form of Linux), which, for the most part, is a decent performer, but OH MY WORD IT IS SLOW whenever I shut it down, it ain't funny! And if our IT department should ever decide to upgrade to Vista, I'm not gonna go along with it -- I'll go buy a used computer on Craig's List and put Linux on it and take matters into my own hands instead. And I have checked on that, and yes, such a move IS (thankfully!) permitted.

    And here at home, I've had Linux (various distros, currently running Ubuntu Ultimate Edition) on here for over three years now and I'm LOVIN' IT! :-)

    Steve Ballmer, put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!

    Fred in St. Louis, MO USA

    #103456

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 8:41 p.m.

    Meanwhile... my linux never crashes and I can use all my windows programs and mac programs...

    #103500

    Posted by unregistered user at 2/29/08 10:56 p.m.

    Well you can run many Windows programs with Wine, sometimes more smoothly even on the same machine. As for mac programs, if there is no Windows or Linux version, then keep running your mac.

    The article up there is in regard is dissatisfaction with Vista performance.

    Many popular software is open source and as such multi-platform (runs on Windows, Linux, OS X, BSD, Amiga, and even more exotic ones.)

    GIMP (gnu image manipulation program), OpenOffice, Firefox, Videolan (VLC media player), pidgin, DOSBOX, scummvm, ZSNES and I could go on.

    There is plenty of new software to try if your favorite doesn't have a Linux version. Some proprietary software has ports too, Adobe Flash and Nero come to mind.

    Now, if the best argument is: look you need Windows to run xyz app! Same for a mac app. So if the app gets a port for linux or a better alternative app emerges then guess what OS has a Genuine Disadvantage (hint: starts with a W.)

    There are plenty of Windows users that want to switch, but are stuck. Whether it's an app or a game, what happens when that obstacle disappears? It is getting there.

    #103520

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 1:43 a.m.

    you can easy install on ubuntu a free virtual machine and install windows xp if you need some windows only programs. you can install DOS on other virtual macihne for playing classic games. Ubuntu is very easy to install update, upgrade(a new version appears at 6 months), new programs can be installed just by clicking them. If you want more from your system then you have to get deep and learn more , compile programs from source but this is for advanced users. The graphical effects are etter then the one in Vista, you do not have the fear for viruses or other malware(you can click any link and open every suspect email because you can't get infected) you can use wine to install some windows application like adobe reader, quick time, photoshop(not the latest version i belive) winrar or and other programs(not all programs can be run in wine, this project is in development) .NET application can be run (using mono) the firefox and opera browsers are better then internet explorer(opera is the fastest browser) OpenOffice is a complex office tool ,it can read and save .doc or other MS office files. If you are a gamer then i sugest to use a dual boot windows xp + ubuntu. You just have to download the Ubuntu Live Cd boot from it and test Ubuntu(test the sound the network) if all drivers are working fine then you can install it in parallel with the installation you can run other programs. Codecs for sound and video are not preinstalled because of some legal problem in USA but after installation you can install them(you are asked when playing some video if you want to install that codec). In Europe Microsoft will have more and more problems and fortunatly soon Europe will have less computers running Windows ,internet Explorer, Windows Media Player. Open your eyes world Microsoft is stealing your money for bad, bad code,. They are alternatives!!!

    #103524

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 2:22 a.m.

    The point behind trusting "Vista Certified" labels is so that Joe Sixpack can buy a cheap box and run Windows without doing a lot of research and it'll work more or less right out of the box and any random collection of peripherals and software after purchase will work more or less acceptably.

    The tradeoff for using a free Linux OS is supposed to be consumer research to find out what hardware will work with which distro.

    Now, we find that one has to extensively research hardware and software to find out what's Vista compatible and labels and that Windows upgrades are as likely to brickify your box as fix it.

    What's the upside to Windows Vista supposed to be again?

    #103528

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 3:42 a.m.

    funny how no one mentions the massive amounts of DRM in Vista. this is what bogs it down so much.. it checks everything against it DRM system.

    if they would release an update that would just remove that crap vista might become usable.

    #103539

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 5:38 a.m.

    Montana Brand Dvlmt wrote:

    "Intel just made major mistake #2..."

    Actually, it's mistake #3. I've been working in this ridiculous business for over 30 years. Roll the clock back to the pending release of the IBM AT and the beginning of the 16-bit revolution. Intel could not source the volume of 80286 chips that IBM anticipated needing, so they second-sourced to AMD. In return, AMD secured an agreement that Intel would share the 80386 fab market with them when that chip was released. Intel then added an s-load of fab capacity and when the 80386 was released, Andrew Grove told AMD, "You aren't getting any of our 80386 business. We're breaking our agreement. Tough s***. So sue us. BTW, we have way more lawyers and a way bigger Legal Dept. budget than you have." AMD nearly went under, as a direct result of this tactic. That is why I have always taken every opportunity since (and still do) to throw some business AMD's way, whenever I could do so without hurting myself or my clients. Not that AMD is run by saints, but what do you think Intel's tactics would be like by now with _no_ competition?

    To those advising waiting for XP SP3 - are you sure? What if the DRM crap really is the biggest problem with Vista and MS has reverse-engineered that nonsense into SP3? I wouldn't put it past them - they sure do seem to be in love with the RIAA, et al.

    -Roland

    #103553

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 6:57 a.m.

    After spending thousand over the years on Microsoft OS's and software, we have decided that NO MORE MS. Linux, faster better smarter.

    #103565

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 8:10 a.m.

    Yup, the MS fanbois and astro-turfers are out in force here. Good luck guys.

    In 1998 my then employer began a migration to Linux. At the time it was RedHat6. The techie types, especially those with some prior Unix experience, made the transition easily. The net effect of this was a substantial reduction in overall IT costs to the organization, about 9000 desktops. By 2001 the transition was complete. Even more IT savings. --- Time marches on.

    In 2005 I left that employer and formed my own IT services company specializing in Linux desktop and servers. We do not sell equipment; we spec it for our customers; they buy it; we configure it and install it in their shops; yes, there are several companies that will sell you PCs without any MS software to go with them. We also do custom applications and tailor open-source applications for customers. At this writing, we have about 50 employees. We are responsible for about 115,000 desktops in over 200 small and medium businesses.

    So much for the backgrounder.

    What we are seeing now is an increasing demand for Linux migrations. There is a lot of resistance to MS anything. Business has finally figured this out!

    For many businesses, depending on what MS software they are currently using, we can do a full Linux migration in under a year. After figuring the cost of our services and the customers' first year costs after the migration the result is a break even. Ongoing costs after the migration and first year operations most of these customers experience about a $1500 per desktop savings per year in software licenses and lower hardware requirements.

    My most memorable migration customer was a small company that was hit with a BSA "audit" (some would call it extortion). The company had to pay the BSA a big penalty for a few unlicensed XP and applications. I got the call a few days after it was settled to do the migration. It was done in about 6 months. He's been my best word of mouth advertizing since.

    Yes, I've run Vista. We've bought some laptops that come with Vista pre-installed. It is worse than you can possibly imagine. On recent Dell Inspiron 1700 laptops, Ubuntu 7.10 installs cleanly out of the box, with all the drivers. It just works.

    What is my company. I won't even tell you because the MS fanbois will say I'm spamming the comments. What I will tell you is that there is a growing industry of Linux Migration Specialists out here. I'd advise any business that is worried out IT costs, computer security, privacy, and, heh, heh, the BSA, to make contact with one of the good companies and get started. You'll be very glad you did.

    #103576

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 8:59 a.m.

    I'm not the purpose of publishing a news article, then letting any Joe Blow turn it into a troll fest by putting their MS bashing comments in. People buy cheap, ghetto hardware from Wal-Mart and expect not to have problems because it has a cute sticker on it. Go figure. I bought a new computer, with decent hardware. Vista runs like a dream, and I'd never go back to XP or have a need for a Fisher-Price OS like Linux.

    Seven years later, there are more computer users than before, but they really haven't gotten any smarter.

    #103581

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 9:12 a.m.

    Here is just one example of the trolling lies posted to this site. Consider post #103083 who says:

    Vista runs great on my quad core (overclocked from 2.4 to 3.02ghz) with 8GB of ram....

    ... it sits on 750mb of ram and 25% of my processor just to run a web browser."

    Hold it right there LIAR! I design websites for a living, so on my wimpy dual core I have 4 browsers installed. IE, Firefox, Safari, and Opera. Not a single one uses any CPU time when sitting idle, unless there is a Flash Applet running on the page, or some demanding Javascript. Playing a YouTube video as it streams uses just 14%.

    Just another example of a lying troll, who I might add mentions XP and Linux in the same post.

    #103597

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 9:50 a.m.

    It's incredible that senior management at Microsoft knows no better than to put such damaging statements in emails! As MSFT is a public company, those managers (Sinosky, Kalkman etc) ought to be fired first then asked questions later. Or are the emails a result of MSFT continuing to believe they can get away with anything?

    #103614

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 10:43 a.m.

    Wow. Anyway, I've never used Vista, so I can't make a performance claim. I just know it is loaded to the gills with DRM. Making hardware less reliable or consume more electricity to accomplish the same task.

    http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

    Now, as for the blatant troll of Linux being "Fisher-Price". There is a reason it runs on super computers, a reason NASA uses it. A reason Hollywood uses it. A reason it's in a host of electronic devices from phones to routers. A reason the really big companies use it like IBM, Amazon, EBay, Google, Yahoo. The only really large corp that uses Windows is Microsoft.

    I could provide a host of links, but here is just one
    http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/1350000/1344214/9951.html?key1=1344214&key2=2488623021&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=15151515&CFTOKEN=6184618

    Feel free to search to see if I'm lying. :P

    Now, as for the comment that computer users aren't getting smarter. I disagree, some people seem to be sick of cost and performance of Vista. They aren't sheep. Now if the sticker says Vista capable, would someone have to know that you have to wait several years for the average computer to run Vista with full features? That makes someone dumb? It makes Microsoft liars. Something which nobody should like.

    If you use Vista and it runs great, then keep using it. If Linux doesn't meet your needs then be glad you have what you have. So? Let's name call other OS's. Then complain about trolls :P Either a shill or astrotrufer.

    #103620

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 10:47 a.m.

    Also top it off, those dirt cheap walmart pc's you mentioned...
    Oh $200 Linux machine.
    http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=926

    #103735

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 9:55 p.m.

    I have two desktop machines and a laptop at home with Linux (opensuse and ubuntu). The last remaining machine has XP, and when that dies I'm converting the whole household to Linux!

    #103736

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 9:57 p.m.

    Right now I'm lusting after an ASUS EeePC. A friend brought one in to work and had replaced Xandros with Ubuntu. It's just fantastic. I hear you can put XP on it, but why would you want to?

    #103738

    Posted by unregistered user at 3/1/08 10:20 p.m.

    Why do people keep saying that users that are running vista are early adopters? Vista was 1st released on January 30, 2007. 13 months ago. In computer terms, that is suppose to be a mature product. OSX releases a new update every 18 months. Microsoft use to release a new windows every 3 years (until the vista 6-years release). What I'm saying is that at 13 months old, using the average release cycle,Vista has already lived 1/3 of it's life. Isn't that a sad thought.

    #103744

    Posted by LeBain at 3/1/08 11:22 p.m.

    I work for a content company that made a great investment in making sure all its video was encoded to the Plays for Sure specs with WM DRM. Then when we were ready to roll out, MS bombed Plays for Sure on us! Nobody at the MS P4S program will respond to our e-mails, calls or internal contacts. Matt J. was our main contact and he's gone radio silence on us.

    Now they've changed the P4S logo program to "Certified fur Windows Vista" even though our services still work with WinXP just as they always have. That creates even more confusion in the co