About time Sun caught up with Microsoft http://research.microsoft.com/adapt/TaskGallery/

They've had this research for years.

On the microsoft link there, it does not look much different from Bob. There are flat 9(2D) browser windows on a 3-D environment. Not something "revolutionary".

And what does this UI "technical advance" attempt to solve? Maybe if Sun spent more time listening to computer users and less time trying to invent the next horrible demo that can actually run on Java (and be installed by a human without a phd in CS) it would have a better chance of creating a product that people would buy.

-- Font9a

furthermore, the on the microsoft page all the links direct me to a "The web page you are trying to reach is not available" notice - a glorified 404. looks to me like ms mothballed whatever they had (and yes, it does look "bob"-like)

Microsoft has nothing close to the technology presented in Looking Glass - get a clue. Stoopid Troll.

Geez how tedious that thing looks. Some dork thrilled with his own abilities to put the Quake engine in the service of his streaming video windows.

I have to agree with font9a above: there's no mention of the *actual problem* that this solves, nor of any meaningful use it could be put to. Spinning the window around to write a note about a webpage is hardly as useful as being able to write a note while looking at the webpage you're writing about.

SInce Sun has basically no track record in producing consumer UI, shouldn't they be worrying more about the basics than the gee whiz features?

Thanks for all the comments.

font9a asks: "And what does this UI "technical advance" attempt to solve?"
Looking Glass is a research prototype, using Java 3D to create a portable user interface that's as independent of the underlying operating system as possible. From it will probably spring ideas that enrich future products, just like the cited Microsoft research did.

andrew asks: "shouldn't they be worrying more about the basics than the gee whiz features?"
Completely agree, that's what Java Desktop System addresses - it's a shipping product, LG is a just a prototype. It's been adopted by China, accepted in the UK and seems to be what a lot of people were waiting for.

font9a asserts: "more time listening to computer users ... it would have a better chance of creating a product that people would buy."
Java Desktop offers what customers told Sun they wanted - low costs, the right functions, and freedom from license management so they could just get on a grow. Having said that, Sun's focus on R & D has been key for 21 years. Some things miss (like NeWS), some hit (like NFS or Java) but R & D is always key.

hi

hi yourself

sun pwns miscrosoft crap

As far as I could tell this demonstration is simple vanishing point manipulation, not true 3D imagery. For honest to God 3D to occur you MUST isolate each eyes image capture; feed each eye a different image, and make the transitions between R/L fast enough to avoid detection, typically seen as display flicker. Further more, in filming, you've got to use a camera with twin apatures (Two lenses) set apart about the width of of the human eyes. Start with that information base, keep your frame rates up faster that a typical retina delta speed and you can visualize true 3D that breaks free from the picture frame, both towards the viewer, as well as back into the picture plane horizon. This is the next huge frontier in movie filming with major studios lining up to get titles filmed to this standard. James Cameron (Alien/Terminator/Titanic) has even had special cameras built to allow easy filming to computer hard drives. There is one Canadian company named Sensio (www.sensio.tv) that has invented an encoding/decoding algorithm and processor that allows NTSC MPEG-2 compression and viewing of DVD transfers. You can see it in about 125 high-end audio and video retailers nationawide in the US and Canada. The effect is nothing short of startling - I've watched scores of people put up their hands to grab things that hang in the air. Consider Medical school learning in 3D - superbowls in 3D - real estate home tours in 3D - you very own home movies filmed in 3D. VERY COOL.

If Sun is casting around for ideas on improving the user interface, how about an ability to save and retrieve a multitude of specific desktops?

Not just several wallpapers -- but the ability to save the arrangement of icons, windows, etc. as a named setup for immediate reconfiguration when desired? How I'd love to create a "word processing desktop", a "video workstation desktop", a "researcher's desktop", and more that would be readily available with a single click!!

Early GUIs had a menu bar containing the words "Desk File Edit ..." but recent incarnations omit the "Desk" entry (which formerly held "desktop accessories"). It's time to bring "Desk" back, featuring the ability to save a number of user-named and user-arranged desktops for use during a daily computing session.

In short -- I need functionality, not more eye-candy.

George Crissman

bye

Microsoft has had cheesy looking, poorly designed, slow moving 3-D for years, but so what! They don't use it. That is the point of the video demonstration. Microsoft Operating systems are crap.

If car manufacturers released product the way MS does we'd all be buying 2-door Pinto's and paying 30-40,000 dollars for them. Then when they'd be delivered the wheels would have no rubber, your 4 piston engine would come with three and only the rear window would be enclosed with glass.

Then we'd have to remember to check in with the dealer to get some of the parts to complete the car no more than once a month.

Finally we'd back the car into our home garage, bump into the back wall and the over-priced, incomplete, unsafe vehicle would explode destroying not only our purchase but burning down our home and destroying everything in it.

The above is a perfect analogy to a Microsoft Product.

Sun's idea may not be new, but they're promoting it, encouraging cooperation to improve it's use and best of all it works.

I'm not a Java programmer or a Sun employee or stockholder. I own a small computer shop that makes a good living cleaning up Microsoft's crap so that regular folks can actually use their systems. We've NEVER had to work on a Sun or Linux system. We do rescue SCO-Unix from time to time. But there is so much more interesting and profitable work to do than repairing Windows registries every day.

I say go Sun! Go Suse! Go Red Hat! Go get screwed Microsoft.

Mark Ring
Computers & More, LLC

Re George Crissman's post regarding his desire for multiple desktops, third-party software developers have offered this for the past ten years. Go to any of the big software download sites and search with keyword phrases such as "multiple desktop" and you will likely get dozens of hits.
Furthermore, mulitple-monitor setups will easily allow this right from the video card's software.

I would guess that Microsoft hasn't offered it as part of their operating systems because there likely hasn't been much demand for it, and using autohide quicklaunch toolbars has been more than adequate for most users while keeping the desktop relatively uncluttered.

Mark, your an idiot.

you've never had to fix a sun?? of cource not
nobody freakin' uses them! Then when you do you
need to be have a huge network to truly appreciate it
then you need to prepare for unplanned unscheduled
down time dont try installing anything that won't
work don't dare try doing anything not java related
then the fact that the only thing java is good for
is freakin' arcade games from the 60's yippity do da
day.... java the computers saviour the all in one
all mighty cross compatible big assed lying POS no
parallel computing no memory management does absolutly
nothing useful if and when it works! and comparing
cars and computers is not a relevant analogy I
hope you seriously don't tell ppl who come into
your shop this crap

.net is m$ answer to java and it will destroy it I
wouldn't invest in sun!

It will take a lot more than this for Sun to dethrone MS. Try, EASE OF USE, and AFFORDABILITY.

In response to the pinto comment, aside from being way off topic, it's just not accurate. Sun patches their software all the time just like MS, just like Cisco IOS, just like all other platforms trying to serve millions of customers with thousands of features. MS is cheaper and easier to use. When Sun is cheaper and easier to use, it will hold the top spot.

BACK ON TOPIC, I think this UI, although pretty, would most likely be more confusing for most end users, not less. So, what is the benefit in using it?

hutch is going to die poor and alone if he isn't already

I find it astounding that Mark Ring

1. Submits a post that is demonstrably false, juvenile, and completely unprofessional while including his business URL, so that people who actually have some familiarity with computers will be sure to avoid doing business with him.

2. Submits his business URL which contains his physical business address and a toll-free contact number

314 1/2 4th St. NE Watertown, SD 57201

(866) 641-0318 Toll Free

3. Returns to the thread after much more astute and computer-savvy posters accurately refute his incorrect statements with factual information, and makes additional juvenile and personal attacks against those posters.

It's relevant to know that Mark is from the state that regularly re-elects Tom Daschle.

Okay,

so it is geeky. It is not for the main stream people (yet). It however is the pretiest windowing system I saw in a long time IMHO.

Also think of it this way, if the desktop is evolution then the next versions will emerge you into a 3D envionment and this is a first step.

Speaking of innovation ... Why did no other company come up with this type of innovation ?

To answer WHY : For me this is just a much nicer way of having virtual desktops. More space available to stock your running apps.

Do we need this : NO.
Do I want this : YES.
Do you want this : Your call!
Zauber is magic

Phew what a lot of MS trolls up there.

Sun shows that a unix desktop can be really cool, and suddenly all the MS trolls start asking questions about usefullness. Then others mention sun hardware prices, forgetting that this can work on Linux and will probably be given out for free. I think we are starting to see signs of panic here.

Microsoft's .NET looks an awful lot like Sun's Java. Just like everything else Microsoft does, steal an idea from someone else and put their name on it.

This seems to me to be much more of a 'Proof-of-Concept' than an actual ship-of-the-line production system that people will use in their workplace. A toy, if you wish. And a nice demo of what can be achieved on the desktop.

I suspect that the message Sun want ppl to understand is that Java can be used to build desktops. Nothing new, however it is the getting it in front of people that matters. Evangelisation.

As far as Sun JDC goes, the underlying technology has already proven to be EASY TO USE (and no you dont need to be a geek to install it; some Linux e.g. Xandros have a 4-click install - now compare that with an XP install and go figure), and AFFORDABLE (the commercial product with full office productivity suite and all the software you could use ships for less than the standard XP clean install; you can download most Linux distros for free or purchase them for little more than the cost of a blank cdrom).

The systems of which Sun JDC is a part are already the fastest growing segment in the desktop marketplace; as shown above it is already conquering the government space, and with the commercial support offered by the big boys (e.g. Sun, IBM, HP etc), the workplace desktop is following.

Within two years Microsoft will have lost its desktop dominance. And small wonder when you compare the buggy, insecure, expensive MS OS with the Linux based offerings. The only thing stopping people at the moment I suspect is they haven't looked on the other side of the fence yet ...

Knoppix anyone?

FP

Looks like Looking Glass has a pretty good jump start on Longhorn.

There's insufficient space in a posting like this one to even begin to discuss the shortcomings of Java as a 3D desktop. What can be said is that:
A: Stereo 3D does require separate channels for each eye, but stereo isn't necessary for a good 3D experience.
B: Twin cameras don't work for 3D in any situation requiring camera motion. The director can't grab your head and twist it, but he can twist your eyes. It hurts after a while and thus, is useless.
C: 3D can add tremendously to the computer experience but the only folks who've figured out 'what', are the game designers and myself. The gamers have one branch and I have many others, but won't tell what they are unless I'm offered big bucks up front. Want killer app? Got money?
D: Simon Phipps better do a patent search before he goes much further, or he might find himself in trouble.

jbevier....Is that you Jim? This is Dwight! If it is you, give me a call, my numbers are the same.

You talk about Mark being juvenile & making personal attacks? Look in the mirror. Your fake URL says it all.

I've had to use Windows desktops for years for software development. However, I am not new to computers and still have a certain passion for the command line and plain 'ol text (for a good read, check out Neil Stephenson's 'And then there was the command line'). I stayed away from Mac's for years because I don't want the hardware and software guts of the machine hidden from me.

With that said, in the mid to late 90's I switched to Linux cuz, again, love for the command line. From there on I've implemented and designed many big systems. One of which launched a system across 150 Sparc CPUs and sold over $1bil in airline tickets in the first 8 months of operation. One thing that showed me was a Java app can scale and stable - something all business people can appreciate and in fact, strive for.

Now, switching gears to the computers I've built for my family - they're all crap, unreliable, and as secure as, well, that's well documented. Numerous family and friends have lost files and time due to Windows security issues. So, I've been switching them over to a Mac over the past year. I myself 'switched' a few years back - from Linux to Mac. ;) Although I still develop via Linux and find it great for running servers (solid as a rock and uptime of years), as far as the desktop goes, Mac is it. It has all the Linux things I loved plus the Windows various Windows apps I use in the business world.

This christmas my parents are getting an iMac. And I'm more and more of idea that I want a mcahine that has things that just work. I don't want to be notified that my drive space is low, or my networking is available, or whatever. These may seem like good ideas, but they really just get in the way. And for me, that sums up windows: it just get's in the way. I'm sure there are quite a few people who feel productive on a Windows box, but to me, it's as stifiling as a computer without a connection to the Internet.

Plus, my Mac doesn't *require* me to register my copy of the OS or whatever - it's part of the bigger whole. I'm buying a *computer*, not a hodge podge of this and that where when something goes wrong, one vendor points you to another (for a perfect example of this, try getting your money back for a Windows OS license you don't want to accept; yah, good luck). I don't like the fact that I buy something and I have to 'activate' it - it's mine and I'll do what I want with it. Just like iTunes DRM - I burn my songs off to a cdr and then re-rip them cuz I bought them; they're mine. And I support iTunes because it still gives me that choice. Plus, I don't want a bunch of 'bundled' software that I never use wasting space on my hard drive. I was really angry when I found out that Movie Maker and other various Microsoft bundled apps could not be removed without 'breaking things.

I'm really concerned and quite angry at Microsoft's attempt to fix an operating system that was not designed for the Internet, like Linux, Solaris, BSD, and OS X are, by locking up the bios and dubbing it as 'secure computing'. I won't buy an Xbox because I'm not allowed to change it. These rules of ownership are ridiculous and are just making us more and more slaves of whatever big corporate companies want.

And for those saying Solaris is non-existent; you live in the desktop world where, yes, Solaris is non-existent. But, there is a reason why no one would try to roll out a big *enterprise* system where things MUST work and they must work non-stop on Windows - because it won't work. For desktop systems, if someone's desktop crashes, they maybe loose their work and reboot. Frustrated and a few hours (or perhaps days) behind is not the same as millions of dollars of transactions possibly lost. There is a lot of money in this market and it is the stuff of the big guys. A $299 XP Pro licnese or even 100 of them is nothing compared to a million dollar Solaris server and the associated consultant costs.

The Java desktop is neat and for developers and multiple desktops are a must, as far as I'm concerned are a must, but I'm not going to buy into it unless it works just cuz it has Java slapped on it. As far a deploying Internet applications, Linux & Solaris are it. While .Net is a step in the right direction, its major flaw is still that it's for an insecure and poorly designed (as far as reliability goes) OS (maybe Mono will change this, but I doubt it). For desktop apps and general Internet, OS X is it. For games, yah, you need a Windows box. I think in the next few years market forces will bring more and more pressure on Windows to improve. People are already moving to other platforms because they work well and they don't bug people with popups, virii, ridiculous licensing terms and instability. It's called competition and it can only help Windows.

Well, The real "3-D" desktop is 3dna, in which you can "walk" or move through multiple rooms and a wall of browser windows let you see more than 15 web pages at the same time. check that out!

Knoppix is pretty darn good but i don't know if it can ever take over microsoft!

null

Mac OS X. Nuff said.

.NET (originally, not counting Mono) also lacks what I'd class as Java's biggest asset: the "write once, run anywhere" functionality. This is invaluable in a large corporate environment, as one doesn't have to rewrite/recompile every single application on the server if the company decides to change platforms. The chance of MS actually writing something that will run on an open source platform is next to nill, and as such they totally miss the whole point of Java.