Posted by 51052 at 5/18/08 11:46 a.m.

Well, for one thing the California Supreme Court just said that homosexual marriage is just fine and dandy. This is a perfect example of something that normal people know is wrong but know-nothing elitist do gooders think is ok. Normal people also generally accept the values that made America great while the Hollywood crowd has spent the last 30 years mocking and tearing down our values. This has created the sleazy trash culture we see everywhere. I'll take normal people any day thank you.

Posted by Skeer at 5/18/08 12:34 p.m.

All right, so tell us those values that made America great. Wiping out the Native Americans? Bombing Hiroshima? Slavery? Killing animals for fun? Wrecking the environment? Believing in mythical beings who live in the sky and made everything and allegedly had their offspring murdered hideously for a principle? What else, what am I leaving out here, help me out. Tell us those values.

Posted by Steff at 5/18/08 12:45 p.m.

When you think of the attributes that make up a stereotypical american... the essence of what makes an american... it is like a chevy ad. Hard work... self made man facing down daily challenges and using his wits and work ethic to better himself... these attributes are embodied in the midwest (rightly or wrongly). These are people who have little or started with little and have still managed to end each day better than it started. That is the cliche. They are content with what they have and don't have a perpetual need to involve themselves in other peoples lives. You look at the coasts and you simply do not get that impression. Look around Seattle. Stuck up self involved yuppies who vacuously consume the life out of everything they touch. They love to preach to others about how their lives are insufficiently politically correct even as they are on their way past poor homeless people to suck down another $4 latte. I am not saying that is the truth but that is the PERCEPTION... So that is why their will always be a divide in this country. You have one group of people (David Horsey and his ilk) spending a tremendous amount of energy and time telling people who see him as some sort of alien that they better get their act together and become more like San Francisco. And you have another group of people that just want to be left alone. And if their value system doesn't match... they better get with the program because by golly we know better and we will make them reform. I believe Obama is calling it "change". Maybe Horsey can help draw up a set of pictures of what the reeducation camps will look like.

Posted by Roger Knight at 5/18/08 1:18 p.m.

Depends on what kind of change we are talking about David.

If change is our jobs being shipped to China for cheap labor and allowing half of Mexico in to compete for what jobs are left, watching the federal government go deeper and deeper into debt to cheap labor industrialists and the House of Saud, our love affair with the automobile being priced beyond our reach by the insane refusal to allow drilling for petroleum in ANWR and off shore in the Gulf of Mexico (but Okay to allow China to drill within sight of Key West!), and allowing our marriages to be wrecked and our breadwinning husbands and fathers destroyed by no fault divorce and the Child Support Crusade, well

allowing same gender marriages is but a minor irritation.

This is NOT the kind of change we would hope for.

Here is some change I could embrace:

Finishing our nuclear plants. Drilling in ANWR and allowing Americans to join the Chinese and Mexicans in drilling for petroleum in the Gulf of Mexico. A foreign trade policy that is on the side of American workers! American built cars that are fuel efficient, environmentally sound, AND do not require metric socket wrenches for repair. Indeed, are designed so that they can be repaired by any reasonably competent amateur mechanic, just like the American cars and Volkswagen Bugs built before the 1980's. A President and Congress willing to call the Global Warming garbage the hoax that it is and refusing to expand the government further. Abolishing entire federal agencies that are beyond the authorization for federal government set forth in Article I Section 8 of the Constitution and the Appropriate Legislation Clauses of the 13th, 14th, and Voting Rights Amendments. A federal government and federal court system that ENFORCES the 13th, 14th, and Voting Rights Amendments! A family law practice that RESPECTS the Bill of Rights, 13th, and 14th Amendments and state constitutions that prohibit imprisonment for debt. No more pork barrelling earmarks. Voters who are OFFENDED by the bragging about bringing the federal funds home. A federal budget that is balanced by the restraint of spending with a surplus going toward paying off the debt and this being done FOR AS ALONG AS IT TAKES. And no more pandering and selling our policies to the Milo Minderbinders who ship our jobs overseas and sell our military services to the Jihad.

If the mixed race man from Hawaii and Illinois promises this and convinces me that he not just saying it and quietly assuring Canadians that he does not really mean it, I would be tempted to vote for him. Unfortunately Obama isn't promising the change I would hope for. And McCain has drank some seriously unAmerican Kool-Ade, his service in Vietnam is the last time he did anything honorable!

Posted by 2001 at 5/18/08 3:19 p.m.

As another poster said, it's about perception. The Northwest is very far away from Washington, DC. We are not small, but are not big either. That is not going to change so long as we're that upper, left corner of the U.S.

When you think "American" you also think of the "settling" of a continent and a more agricultural, simpler past. Some think people still live that way, or at least want to believe it.

As we prop up our agriculture with government subsidies that smack of agro-socialism and lose jobs, it's nice to think on and glorify the past.

And 51052, you're definition of "normal" is not shared by all Americans. Gay marriage is a distracting social issue. It will not put food on your table or take it off. And what exact "values" made America great? I love my country, but that does not blind me to the fact that America is not perfect, that our history includes shameful episodes that warrant reflection to NOT repeat such mistakes in the future. Judgmental generalizations are sometimes difficult to make, but you make it look easy. ;)

Posted by 51052 at 5/18/08 3:25 p.m.

Yes, America has many skeletons in its closet as does every other civilization in history. I guess I was lucky to grow up when strong families were the norm and the state didn't have to raise the children resulting from broken families. I also grew up learning that a strong work ethic and personal responsibility were important for a succesful life. These values have virtually disappeared as things to emulate. In barely one generation we now have broken families, a welfare culture of entitlement and a sleaze popular culture that glorifies sex, violence and depravity. That we are even debating homosexual marriage shows how far we have sunk. It's Hollywood versus the Heartland. So the question could as well be; what's sp great about Hollywood?

Posted by ConservativeBlogger at 5/18/08 3:39 p.m.

Of course people that are superior in intelligence migrate to progressive cities such as Seattle and San Francisco David. Do you think they could dress up in a penis costume and march around places like Othello WA without people raising an eyebrow?

Abortion clinics aren't as easily found in small Podunk towns either David; you need to go where the "intellectually elite" congregate to find a better "choice" of doctors that will be happy to dispose of that "unwanted thing" (and get a hearty pat on the back by a group of lesbians while doing it).

While passing through various small towns I had a hell of a time finding a Marxist professor as well. I asked a guy in one of the local feed stores if there were any in town, but he must have just gotten out of the military, as all he could do was grunt. The guy sitting next to him was busy cleaning his gun and ranting something about God, so I didn't dare go near him. Fortunately I saw a guy reading a Stephen King novel sitting in his BMW at a fillin station (I knew he must have been from Seattle, as he could read) who gave me the answer I wanted to hear (which was: "Find an intellectual Marxist around HERE? Ha, they're just a bunch of ignoramus military people that sit around clinging to their guns and talk about God".).

Can you believe that they have churches in small town America as well David? I'm not talking about a place that was once a church and then later turned into a gay nightclub, but actual churches where people congregate and acknowledge that there is a Supreme Being; and that HIS rules are to be obeyed. That's a real joke to an intellectual moral relativist isn't David?

And get this David: I was driving by a one of those churches I was talking about and a couple came running out and people were throwing rice at them. Believe it or not David, it was actually a man and a woman that had just gotten married! (hence the church not being called "The Church of San Francisco").

Talk about backwoods David. I couldn't find "The Vagina Monologues" being played anywhere! Do they have ANY culture?

Big city folk pretty much think that they were the "chosen ones", the "intellectually (yet proudly morally decrepit) elite". They show it by the way they walk and talk (or prance and chant if it's "pride weekend"), by the politicians they elect (always liberal to the extreme) and by the newspapers they read (is it true "The Stranger" is now the most read periodical in Seattle?).

Yes David, those "Folks from the Heartland" have a long ways to go before they get anywhere close to being as "sofistercated" as those from San Francisco and Seattle.

By the way David, what year did they kick you out of the great State of Indiana?

Posted by doshii at 5/19/08 11:19 a.m.

Everybody wants to draw a win from what Horsey said.

Seems to me he's pointing out the facts. More people live in cities. More people are working in the service sector, and not in manufacturing or producing. A lot of us have been to college.

Some of you folks want to claim he's wrong about this from a quasi-moral standpoint, saying that this heartland business is not only legit but it's superior to anything you find on the coasts.

But he's not saying that. He's asking the question, "Why is the heartland so valued in political discourse?" And he accurately points out, I think, that it's because we all have rose-tinted glasses on when we look at our agrarian past, all hard work and being on your own and such. That confuses me.

Cities can suck. We get that. But cities are the primary social and economic engines of this nation. Those cities carry a lot of the values from the heartland because (gasp!) people leave that area so they can make a better living in a city.

All this moral crap is dueled over each and every day from over coffee to the pundits on TV. That's got nothing to do with the argument. Horsey's point seems to be, "Why don't we learn to value what cities and rural areas have to offer, instead of deriding one or the other?" Some of those qualities will clash, of course, and such is compromise is for.

I think we could use a little more of that compromise, instead of trying to reach for the moral high-ground.

Posted by Victor Laslow at 5/19/08 12:58 p.m.

Just a note to 'Conservative Blogger' from the Heartland- Plainfield Indiana to be exact. Neat picture of what we ain't buddy. Read the online comments in our one local paper- Indianapolis Star- they abound with 'n' word references on almost any issue even remotely related to race. Having dealt with those fine Fundamentalist Christians you seem to admire (being one myself, despite having been tossed from three churches for suggesting people should actually report income and pay taxes....) I would note you won't see any of them demanding a return to proper Christian marriages (one man, one woman, for life)-many of them are on their second or third wife. Just like you though, they're happy to trash any gay couples wanting to get married. I have been reading the Seattle Post online for years to enjoy some reporting and opinion of substance- since our local paper resides somewhere to the right of 'Mein Kampf'- and this is my first note. Just want to add a 'thanks' to Mr. Horsey, fine cartoons and your comments about the 'Heartland' were too kind if anything. Best.

Posted by Roger Knight at 5/19/08 2:04 p.m.

Interesting point, Victor.

People who complain about gay marriages are thunderingly silent on no-fault divorce. Their attitude toward the Child Support Crusade is to blame the divorced fathers for "abandoning" our families even though we "abandon" our families the way a pirate forced to walk the plank "abandons" his ship!

Now which does more damage to the institution of marriage?

No-fault divorce incentivized by the Child Support Crusade or

Two people of the same gender wanting to try it?

Posted by unregistered user at 5/20/08 9:59 a.m.

Great ed David. Doshii gets the important point you are making, I'm not sure how anyone has inferred that you were suggesting that urban populations are somehow intillectually and socially superior. The truth is, cities (including heartland cities like Chicago, Cincinnati, etc.) reflect a more accurate cross-section of America's diverse population than do rural towns. I grew up in a small town and now live in Seattle. My father lives in a Michigan town that flurished on timber and manufacturing jobs in the past two centuries but is now extremely economically depressed. Those heartland jobs all went over seas thanks to the current corporate tax policies. I've never understood why those states typically go red; the GOP panders to them based on their religious values yet leaves them in the dust when it comes to putting food on their table and educating their children. I love that our society is becoming more accepting of "alternative" lifestyles and looking beyond issues of race and gender. We Americans have a lot more in common than most seem to think; our percieved differences are distractions from the common issues that we all face as a nation.

Posted by cbmro at 5/20/08 11:57 a.m.

We have never been an "average" Nation nor an "average" people. Why would anyone want to claim that role or see themselves that way?

Posted by cowboy dan at 5/20/08 1:04 p.m.

Conservative Blogger, I hope for your sake that you don't live in a city. Because it sounds like it would be hell on earth for you.

Likewise, I'm glad I don't live in the heartland. I'm not criticizing it, it's just not my kind of place.

David's not necessarily saying that the cities are better. He's wondering why the heartland is held up as all that is great about America when most people don't live there anymore? And why is it OK to bash those of us who live in Seattle, San Francisco, LA, Chicago, etc.? We are just as American as the heartland, and we are the majority in this country. I'm sorry if you're having a hard time accepting that fact.

Peace out,

CD

Posted by gogriz91 at 6/2/08 4:30 a.m.

The heartland is such because, unlike urban dwellers, there's no celebration of aberrant lifestyles and no attempt to mainstream fringe elements.