The "buzz" here is that sore loser Lien Chan and his partner of equally dim political future, Song Chu-yu, have been inciting their supporters to riot in Taipei, northern Taiwan and last night in Taichung, central Taiwan. South Taiwan, Kaohsiung/ Pingtung were all quiet, except for where people were celebrating the victory of Ah-bien.
It was a shame to see a fine democratic election tarnished by the graceless duo. Let there be a recount: Chen Shui-bian has won the majority of people's votes (a nice 80% turnout that the US should envy)and will win them again, a fact that most observers not based in Taipei were all along sure would become evident on election day. Lien and Song have disgraced the democratic process of Taiwan, and have strained, pointlessly except to save the political face of a couple of old ninnies, the societal order of Taiwan with their rabble rousing speeches.
Good riddance to bad rubbish!

Kaohsiung, Taiwan

"Unfair", cried the sore losers, even before the final tally was announced, when it was obvious they were going to lose.

Lien and Soong should be arrested for inciting public disorder. Holding day and night rallies protesting the vote count and instigating their misinformed supporters to violence, using their TV station CTV to continously air disturbing scenes of diehard KMT supporters clashing with police and destroying public property thus falsely presenting a state of chaos in Taiwan. This selfish act bodes ill for the international image of Taiwan.

While this debacle continues because of their conniving, the currency will drop, investments will flee and the stock market will become jittery, and god forbid, violence may occur. These selfish acts of Lien and Soong, are they the sort of people Taiwan wants for their leaders?

The last grasping act of a political has-been and his dying obsolete party should not be allowed to derail the vibrant young democracy of Taiwan.

The fact of the matter is, if this happened in the U.S., it would have triggered an automatic recount.

U.S. law requires automatic recount when margin is less than 1%, and this took place for the presidential election in Florida and a few other states in 2000, and numerous other local election afterwards.

I don't know about the election law in Taiwan, but for the Election Commission to officially declare one side a victory while the outocme still disputed by the other side, is simply unthinkable in the U.S.

Again, remember Florida. The results were not officially declared until months afterwards after all the legal proceedings took place.

The Lien-Soong camp has been the rumor mill for the months leading to the election. Their shameless and illegal behaviors simply prove to the world that they are so blinded by greed for power that they fail to understand the true spirit of democracy.

Sisy Chen is notorious for her constant fabrication of purportedly true stories based on "unidentifiable" sources. She left Taiwan immediately after casting her ballot.

Lien-Soong is entitled to dispute the results through proper legal process. However, by resorting to igniting conflicts and creating riots openly, they will go down the Taiwanese history as the culprit who divided the nation and doomed KMT.

President Chen's reputation as a wily politician has been saved by a miraculous escape from an assassin's bullet--a bullet that apparently penetrated the windshield, made a 90 degree turn to graze Chen's tummy and nick Annette Lu, the vice president candidate, on her knee. Her appearing on island wide TV on crutches just before election day was easily worth the winning margin of less than 30,000 votes, assuming, of course, the entire vote counting process was above board.

As a matter of fact: Chen Shui-bian won the elections and Lian Chan had - maybe - won the opinion polls. This is to say, in a democratic country, the elections outcome is essential and not any dubious opinion poll by TVBS, which seem to be the source for most commentators who talk about the margin of 5 percent against Chen.
And Al Gore (who by the way got more votes than Bush) was a good loser, Lian Chan, stirring up trouble and inciting riots, is not a good loser at all.

Berlin, Germany
And one last point: four years ago, Chen Shui-bian received the relative majority of votes, this year the absolute majority. Thus, one could ague that he has now much more legitimacy than four years ago, a fact the oppositional parties are very afraid of, - in particular as the KMT, still shaped by authoritarian structures, cannot imagine to become just a footnote in the Chinese history,.

Well, I remember that president Chen's wife was struck by a lorry and run over several times, this happened several years ago during county elections, she is now paralyzed from the waist down.

I wonder if it had happened on this election's eve, would Lien-Soong and followers claim that Mrs. Chen got paralyzed and wheelchair bound for life just for an election ploy to gain sympathy votes?

Oh, as for the huge number of invalid votes, you can go ahead and blame the Alliance of a Million Invalid votes, or maybe it was staged by Chen as well?

Stop dreaming up reasons why KMT-PFP lost, they lost. End of story.

Tired in Taipei. Let's move on.

Many Taiwanese people voted for President Chen, despite their criticisms about him, simply because they prefer democracy and reform. The opinion polls in Taiwan are never accurate as these type of voters will not reveal their true color.

There is no way the shooting can be staged. The hospital has released pictures detailing the President's entering the emergency room in blood-stained outfit and through the surgery. The currrent evidences show that the assassin fired the first shot toward the moving motorcade, penetrating the windshield and landing on Vice President Lu's knee. By the time the second shot was fired, the motorcade could be passing the assassin, thereby rendering the shot to go across President Chen's abdomen. The shot could have been fatal were the motorcade moved a little bit faster or slower.

It's a miracle the he survived the attack. However, it is dirty politics to the max to make such conspiratory allegations. The opposition party has been so used to deploying wicked political manipulation that they consider such ploys plausible.

Taiwanese election is the laughingstock of mainland china right now, with Chen pulling a assassin stunt and Chan inciting riots. To me, both of these candidates are idiots who fails to understand the basis of democracy. I don't understand how these men took hold of political power, but they sure do not deserve to continue to wield that power.

Taiwanese election is the laughingstock of mainland china right now, with Chen pulling a assassin stunt and Chan inciting riots. To me, both of these candidates are idiots who fails to understand the basis of democracy. I don't understand how these men took hold of political power, but they sure do not deserve to continue to wield that power.

This is not to belabored the point from D.T. but the laws in the US governing recount is dependent on each state and for Florida it was one half of one percent.

It seems like in both US and Taiwan, the laws allow for petitions for recounts and that should be the course of action here, that is to be decided by the courts.

It is really inappropriate to apply the exact letter of the law from one country to another. After all, if we apply the US constitution which states that only native born could run for president of that country, Lien would not in the position of running in the Taiwan presidential election because he wasn't native born in Taiwan.

for thoese who believe the assassination attempt was not staged, pull the head out of your ass

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=480041§ion=news

quote:
After the attack, Chen activated a national security protocol, meaning 200,000 military and police -- traditionally Nationalist supporters -- could not vote.

My friends and relatives are evenly divided between the two candidates. The victory by either party definitely brings cheers on one side but sorrow on the other. But this is democracy. The losing side should accept the rsult and move on. If one's genuine interest is the future of Taiwan, he or she should not attempt to stir up instability.
It is absolutely critical to inform people around the world that the system in Taiwan is far from fair whatsoever, because KMC still absolutely dominates military, government (all levels except the very top), education, and financial branches after ruling Taiwan for half a century. KMC also possesses overwhelming political muscle abroad.
My advice to my KMT friends and friends who support Lien-Soong: let's be happy for those who had nothing to cheer about for 50 years and let the young Taiwan democracy take a deeper root. Four year of ruling by DDP could only do so mcuh toward a more balanced two-party political system. This is evident by the KMT continuing dominance in those aforementioned sectors. If KMT won this election, Taiwan would surely go back to the one-party dominating mode which is really not much different than communist China - today's version!

CCL

To lik, watch your language.

while Lien and his supporters are questioning the great number of invalid ballots, it should be mentioned that there was a campaign on "invalid ballots".
Unsatisfied with both major parties and their candidates, some local NGOs asked voters to make invalid ballots, as a way to express their strong refusal to the both parties and a way to put pressure on the winning one.
The invalid ballots went up to 330 thousands, almost 3 times more than the previous election. The "invalid ballots alliance" proudly take this as their great achievement.
It's midnight here when I'm posting this message. Living within 20 min walking distance from the presidential office, i could hear the non-stop noise of the crowd since last night. The sentiments of the supporters are understandable, but I don't think as a competent major party leader and a competitive presidential candidate, the failed candidate should arouse the indignation of their supporters like the way they do.
Taipei Taiwan

To lik,

Please watch your language on such a public forum.

As one of the common folks now living in the U.S., I can merely hope this wasn't a conspiracy,
it's a dangerous game to play, and the outcomes will be very hard to predict from this point on,
I just want to remind my fellow Taiwanese, no matter what your preference is, the solution has to be peaceful, any violent confrontations will most likely result in lives lost, do remember there are countless Chinese spies living among us, and they are waiting to write some good reports back to Bejing about how wise they were to use such event to inflict further damaging to our democracy.

Back in '89, while I was still serving under Airborne special command, I had encountered several Chinese spies making converations with me or my friends and tried to gathered infomations on what's happening inside our camp, even a tiny bit will interest them in that matter,(so they can write more reports), so do know this, Spies do live among us, and they are waiting, be careful, be careful!

Because my parents are Taiwanese, we have first account of all the politics going on here. (my father is very political) Not the most accurate, but definitely more accurate than the supposed truths after filtered through American press.

But this time, I am very pleased to see that our American press finally got it right:: but i'm very disturbed by the skepticism shown by some in these after-comments.

Let's just get it straight. It is undoubtedly true that Chen staged the attack. The chain of coincidences was just too fantastic to believe.

We will never understand just how dirty Taiwanese politics is. If George Bush's antics to get us to war seem despisable, it would only be on a scale of 1 while the politicians in Taiwan had been playing politics at a 10 through the last twenty years. I had only the privelege of knowing b/c of my parents.

Do not be fooled by Chen's party's democratic background either.

It is really no democracy at all, (or if it is, too corrupt to be called democracy) and yet it wins all the hearts of democrative supporters simply because of its name.

What's even more stupid is that everyone in Taiwan knows how stupid politics is played in Taiwan, and yet nobody opposes it. They just continuously curse without doing anything about it.

Nobody is denying Lien-Soong the rights to a recount. It is they that failed to follow the law. There's simply no reason to incite riots if they have any respect for democracy.

The Central Election Committee never received any formal petition for a recount by the time they announced the results. Remember, the CEC only announced the official vote counts on March 20th, the winner is scheduled to be declared on March 26th according to the laws governing this election.

I don't know how people can call this a fair election when so many people were disenfranchised. If Prez Chen had thought it wasn't the work of China then why call for emergency security, that resulted in most of the armed forces, est. 200k of them, to full alert status. This rendered them unable to vote. Some people might think that there is no conspiracy but his actions looks way too suspicious to me. Even his victory speech should show some galvanization for the people of Taiwan but instead he further polarize the 2 fractions. I thought more highly of him before but now because of all this I lost all my respect for this man! He totally bamboozled this election!!

Lien and Soong are shame of Taiwan, who uses the crowds to make riot and attempting to let china has reasons to claim war against Taiwan.

The voting result is that President Chen Shui-bian in DPP is re-elected, and the Lien and Soongs joint election with appealing for one china policy is failed, again, in Taiwan. The number of people looking for independence in Taiwan is getting more than those controlled by china financed TV and newspapaer media channels, which always propagenda that the future of Taiwan should depend more on mainland china.

And the vote counts says NO to china and YES to A-bien, again.

I keep reading about how Chen was suspose to lose by a few percentage points based on poll results, however, what nobody seems to mention is that polls are inaccurate within a few percentage points anyway.
I'd like to know what the sources of these polls are because the Taiwanese media seems to be heavily polarized between one party or the other and I doubt their ability to generate an accurate poll.
Also, I have heard of a poll by the American Institure in Taiwan that predicted Chen would win by about 30,000 votes.

I don't know how people can call this a fair election when so many people were disenfranchised. If Prez Chen had thought it wasn't the work of China then why call for emergency security, that resulted in most of the armed forces, est. 200k of them, to full alert status. This rendered them unable to vote. Some people might think that there is no conspiracy but his actions looks way too suspicious to me. Even his victory speech should show some galvanization for the people of Taiwan but instead he further polarize the 2 fractions. I thought more highly of him before but now because of all this I lost all my respect for this man! He totally bamboozled this election! He acts if he has won a clear mandate from all the people of Taiwan but the election results sadly tells the truth. While Taiwan needs to be strong united it is now weak. Sure same could be said for KMT if the had won, but DPP just shows that they are no better than their counter part!

There was never any proper politics in Taiwan; only a circus show for its citizens to enjoy.

At least the Taiwanese gets to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea. At least they HAVE A CHOICE!

Phillip, If that's not democracy, tell me what is, or do you want to ask your parents first?

I believe Phillip Wang's father must be the kind of politician who plays such contrived dirty politics.

Please provide REAL evidences to prove your points.

It is a shame for Taiwanese people to use lies to gain international support.

On the other hand, what law did they break even if DPP did stage the assassination? I'm sure Lien must be beating his wife and proteges and blame them for not coming up with such a brilliant idea. He would not have won over any sympathy vote if he ever gets shot!

that's true.

but i'm telling you, a lot of people prefer the deep blue sea, including my parents.

yeah. a lot of people don't want either the Green camp or the Blue camp, that's why they INVALIDATED their votes - all 300,000 of them.

Lien and Soong and their supporters would say this is a "clean" election only if they win the election.

Yes, this is not a fair election. But the unfairness is that media is almost all controlled by the Pro-China parties KMT and PFP. So does the Polls say.

The vots count wining margin is just 0.228%, which is god's will that 28th February is the day when KMT killing so many Taiwanese just to rule us all. And now people say NO to KMT and PFP who only wants to re-unite with China without caring for the other people voting for A-bien.

to YK, this is not communist china. don't try your fruitless censorship here, and learn how to not post the same message twice.

Chen, an evil genius who, in this election, makes Arnold Rothstein's fixing of 1919 World Series look like amateurish, has made Taiwan democracy a laughing stock of the world.

Go jump into the deep blue sea, Phillip. We don't need people like you here in Taiwan. Better yet, go back to mainland where you belong.

Oh, BTW, I forgot that Lien is not brave enough to take the shots. Maybe he will stage Soong as the primary target.

TK's posts are the laughingstock of all the readership right now because you are not patient enough to let the XML page load, and you ended up with two identical inane posts.

Democracy is never perfect and never pretty. As Churchill said, it the the worst form of government invented, except for all the other ones. Of all else, it requires patience to nuture it. This is something that a lot of Taiwanese are forgetting.

I only wish people from both sides of the strait of Taiwan would hold the communist authoritarian government in China to the same standard of democracy as what the Taiwanese are trying to accomplish now.

That explains why there r so many invalid votes. But now Lien/soong using that as evidense that Chen is cheat? Very cheap those KMT guys.

hey don't try to demonify my parents.

i'm speaking also the the mind of the concurrent consensus in the Taiwanese press as well as many friends and relatives.

What are you to degrade what opinions i speak of? If i'm wrong i'm wrong, ok? I just believe i have the most accurate information.

hey don't try to demonify my parents.

i'm speaking also the the mind of the concurrent consensus in the Taiwanese press as well as many friends and relatives.

What are you to degrade what opinions i speak of? If i'm wrong i'm wrong, ok? I just believe i have the most accurate information based on what i have.

is this guy for real? is he really from Taipei? must be a KMT fanatic who got pretty pissed off about nothing but another guys point of view.

Why the vote counts does not match the media Polls? Many of you may question this. Let me explain a little bit to get you started here.

It is because all KMT and PFP people are so arrogant that they will win the election once they unite together in this election. And Taiwanese who supporting A-bien are so humble that they don't express their choices of A-bien when people conducting Polls.

That should teach most of the people who still don't know why they should win the election but the did'nt.

A few things. First, Phillip Wang's comments are intelligent and well formed, I agree with him that the attempt was clearly staged, and that Taiwanese politics are a joke. Just like american politics. Or just about any politics. its a dirty game. Even more importantly, tho, where do all you little gimpy moralisers get off? I mean you, YK, and you TK - jesus, he only said 'ass'! Its not your fucking job to moniter other peoples language and choices, so shut it. Thanx. xxxxx

Most of you that have read this blog will see right away the problem that is eating Taiwan. And that is there are 2 polarazing fraction within the country. No one stops to think that hey there is a problem with the country and how do we bridge that gap. All people can do is mud-slinging each other and throw accusations. People tend to say you started all of this all you guys have done terrible things in the past that are unforgivable. Or people will complain you are such whiners and sore losers. But is this really constructive? Is this really good for Taiwan? Hey if almost half the people of Taiwan doesn't agree with the other half what do we have here? It is a sad day indeed that we see Taiwan like this. I am most fearful of the future and those who are blinded to that fear will in hindsight come to regret it as the future come to past.

I don't know how people can call this a fair election when so many people were disenfranchised. If Prez Chen had thought it wasn't the work of China then why call for emergency security, that resulted in most of the armed forces, est. 200k of them, to full alert status. This rendered them unable to vote. Some people might think that there is no conspiracy but his actions looks way too suspicious to me. Even his victory speech should show some galvanization for the people of Taiwan but instead he further polarize the 2 fractions. I thought more highly of him before but now because of all this I lost all my respect for this man! He totally bamboozled this election! He acts if he has won a clear mandate from all the people of Taiwan but the election results sadly tells the truth. While Taiwan needs to be strong united it is now weak. Sure same could be said for KMT if the had won, but DPP just shows that they are no better than their counter part!

When anyone claims that he/she has "the most accurate" information, please provide REAL evidence.

Who are you to speak for "the mind of the concurrent consensus in the Taiwanese PRESS as well as many frinds and relatives."? Don't forget 6,471,970 Taiwanese people supported President Chen with their votes.

As Sisley Chen correctly pointed out, the Taiwanese media is controlled by pro-KMT pan-blue camp. Following your logic, I know that because many of my friends and relatives work in the media.

In any case, it it important to respect the legal and democratic process even if there are problems. Nothing is perfect, that's why we need the legal system to back up democracy.

I strongly condemn the Lien-Soong camp for creating instability in the Taiwanese society and economy for their own personal interests.

I can't believe that that Taipei guy (if he is actually from Taiwan) accused me of being Chinese when I'm actually an American.

After such historical awareness in our education system, you'd expect McCarthynism not to resurface again.

Again, when I say that Taiwanese government is corrupt, it does mean that their democracy is very corrupt.

It does not mean that I'm in support of communism.

I hope that logic is simple enough to get.

What should happen is Americans should get in there and establish some order. The truth is, even the Ameican government had been disgusted by the politics they've been seeing, and have turned away from Taiwan's "desperate cries for aid" (from China)just a few months back.

Finally, i do not hate taiwanese citizens, i hate their government.

I hate having to clarify what should be known to the educated mass. Don't imply just to insult please.

to "from florida", I agree that democracy is never perfect and never pretty, but when Chen staged something so blatantly fraudulent as this election, he's become a divider who pit one group of Taiwanese against another, and put the young Taiwan democratic process into a perilous path.

Lien and Soong are dividers who pit one group of Taiwanese against another, and put the young Taiwan democratic process into a perilous path.

They have proven this yesterday by make the crowds not to trust our legal systems and inciting they to become rioters.

This is the proof, now, what is your opinion?

We ALL have a tendency to demonize our opponents. We ALL like to think the worst of them. Taiwanese should wake up and NOT to think the worst of our opponents in a democracy.

We should never jump to the conclusion that our opposing party in a democracy are all crooks, thieves and our mortal enemy. We should not jump to the conclusion that Chen 'staged' anything without any shred of evidence. If Mr. Lik has ANY real evidence, please share them.

Need some answers from Taiwanese friends who claimed that Chen activated a security protocol to prevent 200,000 military/police personnel from voting:

1. My Taiwan sources told me that these people could and actually did vote, even though they had to carry out some duties the last two days.

2. Are a lot of these people Chiang Kai-Shek's beneficiany? If not, how can you assume that they will be pro KMT?

BBB

I'm from Taipei and still living here for over thirty years in Taipei -- but I'm not a guy!

If you are an American, what in the world gives you the rights to claim first-hand information about Taiwanese politics.

My family has been deeply involved in politics and governmental offices in Taiwan. I certainly understand the corruptions within the governments ever since the KMT ruled Taiwan. That's exactly the reason why KMT lost in 2000, and why Lien-Soong cannot win over the Taiwanese people.

Please, do not insult me by labeling me KMT -- I would rather be called dead!

sisley chen, you have proven my point with your last post. There wouldn't be riots if Chen didn't commit the fraud. As the leader of Taiwan, Chen chose not to allow a legitimate election. Do you expect your average citizens not get pissed? see, that's why he is a divider. He incited hatred from people who hold different views. If he had won fair and square, life would go on. Now, how can people trust him and his admistration with this B.S?

Yes, people who serve in the military, including the units activated by the national security measure taken after the assassination, are given the time to vote on election day.

To sisley chen,

I feel that you are looking to attack the KMT only on this issue. Does one man, like Lien have such persuasive power to move the crowd to incite riots? IMHO what happened wasn't even a riot it was just normal democratic protest. Riots usually means tear gas and water cannon which there was none. It is people like you who jumped to exagerated conclusion that will spin this whole issue out of control. I think if Prez Chen really wants to come clean about the whole issue he should meet with the opposition. Sure he might have won the race, but by just a measley .2 percent he should look more to the people of Taiwan as a whole and try to clean up any problem that the other group have. By hiding and not facing up to the issue and letting his underlings speak he has shown his true cowardly face! That is what a true leader is, even though it might not be his problem or his mess he should deal with it like a man!

There would be riots as long as Lien-Soong lost the election, even without the assassination attempt. They have been "predicting" the riots for the last few weeks before the election. If there were any conspiracy, the on-going riots are staged and planned by KMT and PFP.

Please remember,
The KMT crowd had riots in front of their headquarter after they lost the election in 2000.

The DPP crowd sat peacefully in tears in front of the city hall when A-Bien lost his re-election bid to the mayor of Taipei in 1998.
There was no violence -- just resolve and they came back to win the presidential election!

There were no riots following any other major DPP lost in the short history of Taiwanese democracy.

Please be fair and decide who are pro-violence and who are pro-democracy based on hard facts.

Well if people in the military could vote eventhough the national security protocol was in place then I guess I'll have to go correct New York Times today's edition for their erroneous reporting! Because according to their front page article it wasn't so! I guess Taipei you are more correctly informed than the well respected New York Times!

Well if people in the military could vote eventhough the national security protocol was in place then I guess I'll have to go correct New York Times today's edition for their erroneous reporting! Because according to their front page article it wasn't so! I guess Taipei you are more correctly informed than the well respected New York Times!

To Mega,

If you had watched the speech by Lien and Soong on TV, you would understand how he incited and manipulated the crowd to stage the protests. The crowd was very excited after the loss and words can be more lethal than swords under such circumstances. There had been no tear gas and water cannons simply because the MKT mayor Ma is caught in between this delicate situation.

The crowd in TaiChung rammed the police with truck and shattered the court house last night -- what else can you call it besides "riots"?

Taipei,

I think it is hardly worth a comparison the mayoral election to a presidential election. Furthermore that election did not have the kind of "events" that has taken place in this election. The future of Taiwan really rode on this election, the first referendum, the differences in how the two party handles China. You just can't compare apple to oranges. It does not have the same kind of impact the many twist and turn as this one.

To Mega,

I am not speaking for A-bien but simply emphaizing the tension made by Lien and Soong which is undeniable. If the crowds keeps using noise and paralyzing the traffic without legal application, it is called a riot.

Go back to watch the video tapes when Lien and Soong talk to the crowds on 3/20. If that is not inciting for riots, then what is ?

I believe people in the crowds all have their anger and astonishment when the vote results come out. But they forgot to think about the other half of vote counts that is not on their side.

If Lien and Soong really respect the other half of Taiwanese voters, why did they give such an inciting talks on 3/20?

Take a look at A-bien's lost in Taipei mayor's election. Did he say any one single word like that? No. He calm the crowds and being humble to the others that did not vote for him. And that is called democracy.

It is obviously that Lien and Soong only cares about their own winning of election without thinking about the stability of Taiwan society.

Some of us need to learn to let the XML page load completely so that we don't get multiple postings.

There is no mention of military voting in the NYTimes articles.

I guess a lot of 'facts' are floating around that are not really factual.

To Mega,

I am not speaking for A-bien but simply emphaizing the tension made by Lien and Soong which is undeniable. If the crowds keeps using noise and paralyzing the traffic without legal application, it is called a riot.

Go back to watch the video tapes when Lien and Soong talk to the crowds on 3/20. If that is not inciting for riots, then what is ?

I believe people in the crowds all have their anger and astonishment when the vote results come out. But they forgot to think about the other half of vote counts that is not on their side.

If Lien and Soong really respect the other half of Taiwanese voters, why did they give such an inciting talks on 3/20?

Take a look at A-bien's lost in Taipei mayor's election. Did he say any one single word like that? No. He calm the crowds and being humble to the others that did not vote for him. And that is called democracy.

It is obviously that Lien and Soong only cares about their own winning of election without thinking about the stability of Taiwan society.

Of course, I'm better informed than the New York Times. I know people who are currently serving in the military. Do they? Want to guess where the well-respected NYT got their information? KMT controls the local media -- many of them are (partially) owned by KMT.

I'm deeply saddened by the progression of events here in Taiwan. I sincerely hope that people who really do care about Taiwan can be more objective and rational. Please listen to the voices of real poeple in Taiwan.

Thank you for answering my question, Taipei.

Taiwanese are indeed polarized, just like our fellow americans. Hopefully it will be transitional.

As far as I know, there are extreme KMTs and modest KMTs, just like our extreme liberals/ conservatives and their modest counterpart. My best Taiwanese friend automatically became a KMT member when he entered college in the 70s. As far as I know he has supported Chen as strongly as DPP members, if not stronger. In fact, he told me that Chen could not have won without swinging votes from KMT members.

To my knowledge, Lien-Soong's supporters consist mainly of Chiang Kai-Shek's beneficiaries and people who are afraid of confronting China. Chen's supporters consist mainly of Taiwanese who were depressed by KMT ruling over the past decades. It seems to me however, modern KMT party is not as extreme as some new parties. Do I have the right sense of modern Taiwan politics?

BBB

To Taipei,

Yes i heard about the speech you mentioned but you are implying that the speech caused a riot... in TaiChung. Is there a correlation?? If not then those who acted in TaiChung are of their own free will. It is one thing for Lien and Soong to incite the crowd to protest but I don't recall remembering them saying anything about telling the crowd to go ram the court house. If you believe that Lien and Soong caused the truck to ram the court house through their speech then you are way more clever than me. As for the Mayor... well he is caught between a rock and a hard place but to have him disperse the crowd when it hasn't shown any overt hosility is to bring back the memory of Tiennamen Square... My God this is the 21st century not 1989 and this is no China.

To Florida,

Hmm... are we discussing web techonology now? For your info I am using html and not xml. If I were to be using xml then it would be xhtml. But then you probably have no idea what I'm talking about. As for multiple posting it occurs because of caching when I try to do multiple posting under by Opera which you probably don't use, since you are still stuck with IE.

We do hope to see a modern KMT party emerg from this defeat. It will be a much better two-party democracy for Taiwan.

This election has been so bitterly fought that negative campaigns and rampant rumors became the norm. The wounds inflicted may take a long time to heal. Being a so-called "middle voter", I attended political rallies by both parties. I'm very impressed with the amount of progress that DPP has made since they were an opposition party of people with different agendas. They deserve more time to continue the reforms that only started a few years ago.

KMT really needs to reflect on their problems and make substantial changes. By refusing to respect the law and democracy, Lien-Soong doomed their political careers and dragged their parties down. Their time is up.

To BBB,

KMT is still an extreme Party as usual. The difference is that their propaganda switching from fighting to gain mainland china to re-uinting with mainland china.

And the press and TV media controlled by KMT and PFP parties are always inciting people to hate thos who are not on their side by using rumors as evidence. They are trying all can be done on papers and TV videos to stir up hatred against opponents, which means the politicians for DPP nowadays.

The http://www.iloveroc.org.tw/index.asp organization even claims to take former president as prisoner and kill him on the street as a parade and the Mayor Ma just approved it, which is insane in a democratic society!

There is still police sirens here in downtown of Taipei city, 02:39 in the late night that going to prevent the rioters from damaging anything more.

And if the leader of such parties that make a riot like this, and all other countless insane dirty works cannot be told at once
, are not extreme, I do not know what is extreme.

Yes A-bien has come a long way hasn't he. I don't recall his victory speech being as well as his losing the mayoral election speech. If only he can be so humble now. I know he is an eloquent man and is very smart but his action or rather in-action after the victory only makes things worst. Now you can say bad things about KMT Lien and Soong and you are probably right, but hey they aren't the current leader of Taiwan. Chen really needs to show he is the leader and stand above the flay and bring this situation under control. You may say the onus is on Lien and Soong and you are probably right, but if you look down on Lien and Soong then expect them to act properly, so there needs to be someone who can cross the divide and bring it to a proper peacful end. So if Lien and Soong are the bad guys and Chen is the good guy then what should the good guy do?

The speech by Lien is broadcasted throughout the island in real time. Several protests started following Lien's declaration to annul the election.

Of course, he cannot do it alone. Several of the KMT and PFP legislators and city senators led the protests in Taipei, Taichung and Kaohsiung. They continue with rhetoric remarks to keep the crowds all pumped up since last night. The riot in Taichung was defuced with a quick concession from the Taichung court house.

It is ironic that the poeple who are supposed to lay out the laws are the ones who led the crowds in breaking the laws.

To sisley,

You may say KMT and PFP tries to divide people in Taiwan but what about the TSU! Comeon their spiritual leader calls himself Japanese! And the media here are not entirely controlled by KMT and PFP, there are plenty of independent reporting here as well as DPP sympathizers. I think for those smart enough to read between the lines they can tell the snafu from the credible. Taiwan is a highly educated nation, though yes there are certain parts that still lacks behind, but it is improving everyday.

To Mega,

My trust for KMT and DPP has been impacted by the speech they made on 3/20, which is intentionally to make a riot without considering their responsibility as the leader of the largest parties in Taiwan.

And that is why I keep emphasizing this point.

To Taipei,

I miss the part about those who lay down the law and breaking the law. Are you saying the rioters who broke into the TaiChung court house are those who sit in the Legislator? The same sad Legislator that have continual and disgracful in-fighting... real fisticuffs that amused the world all-over? Yeah those guys are real outlaws and if they can't behave themselves in the house of rules and laws then on the street less can be expected of them. But can you still believe that they are still elected to Taiwan's house of law? I wonder how can this be? Somebody gonna have to clean that up but wait they were voted there by Taiwanese so lets see gotta find somebody to blame. Yes lets play the blame game!

It has to be someone from the pan-blue camp who has the guts to act legally and righerously. He/she may be a worthy candidate for the 2008 election.

The crowd would not be happy without full concession from the government. However, such a solution will only encourage people to resort to violence for all future conflicts. It is time for the dispute to be handled by the legal system. Violence is never the answer.

To Taipei,

Yes a democratic nation needs at least 2 party otherwise it will be a despot like you know who. So for good or ill Taiwan needs to live with that, but until people start acting a bit smarter and try to think about the overall improvement of Taiwan then little progress will be made and eventually Taiwan will have been left behind by its rivals.

Yes, PFP legislator, Shen Chi-Huei, led the crowd in the riot in Taichung.

There is no question about the need for reform in the Legislative Yuan. There is no question about the need for improvements in the Taiwanese elections. You will be surprised at how easy it is to buy your way into the elected officials.
I have no interests in playing the blame game. Facts speak louder than fictions.

Well it's getting toward 3:30 AM here in Taipei, so I hope everything turns out ok. Hopefully things will turn out well for Taiwan but I wish the re-elected leader would act accordingly and not along party lines cause I have a bad premonition about all of this and I fear that when we look in hindsight a few years from now it will all be too late. Sleep well and wake.

Mega and Taipei,

It is a pleasure to listen to two centralists on the opposite sides talk. I hope Taiwanese people debate like you two and do not resort to violence.

Best wishes from the US

BBB

Taiwanese people are not so stupid and ignorant as the media would have you believe. I'm confident that true democracy will eventually prevail.

People, both inside and outside of Taiwan, need to be wise enough to understand what is actually going on, and appreciate the progresses that have been made in the last ten years.

The Democracy of Taiwan is dying at the hand of Chen Shui-bian's "Democracy Progressive Party".

No matter how many "Taiwanese" people may claim otherwise, the election took place on 3/20 is anything but fair. Please read my entire analysis and see for yourself. Thank you.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5911.htm

Mega,
You sound like someone so sure of themselves that you would ignore facts and create fiction to satisfy your own need to be right.

All I know is this, you have very limited basis in fact in many of your claims and you would prefer to imply others are wrong or bias or unfair. This is exactly the sort of people that many would refer to as sore losers.

For your information, I have no problem posting and no problem with my IT, which is something you can't say for yourself.

Soong and Lien should both be ashamed of themselves! They have taken advantage of the Pan-blue supporters' feelings of defeat and turned this sentiment into a dangerously unnecessary and embarrassing protest for Taiwan.

The KMT have said that they turned over a new leaf since their dictatorial rule over the past 40 years. Well, we now clearly see (by staging these unnecessary protests) that they have absolute contempt for the democratic process.

Lien & Soong had a choice. They could have acted like real RESPONSIBLE leaders and asked for a recount & investigation WITHOUT these potentially bloody protests and await the judicial outcome. However, they chose the IRRESPONSIBLE route and, as a result, have made Taiwan more divided and look more like an amateur in the world stage.

My assessment doesn't even touch on the outrageous accusations that Chen staged the assasination attempt to gain the sympathy vote. All of you who believe this theory (which begs the most questions out of any theory out there) -- consider this:

Why were Lien & Soong not asking for an election postponement BEFORE the election took place????!!! In fact, they WERE downplaying the effect that this would have. Amazing how a leaders opinion does a complete flip-flop when one is officially defeated .

SHAME ON YOU PAN-BLUES!! SHAME ON YOU!!!

Taiwan deserves better.

hey, everyone, calm down. a few things u should know.

1. chen did not stage the assassination attempt
2. or did he?
3. Lien and Soong are thugs, with "no class"
4. Chen is a democratic freedom fighter lawyer
5. Taiwan is experiencing Civil War at this moment in time. Have some heart and help.
6. Commie China is commie China. Boycott the Beijing 2008 Olympics if you love freedom. Don't give your money to Commies...
7. This current crisis will not go away soon.
8. The streets are safe. the TV screens are screaming, that's all.
9. The KMT protesters are silly morons with no class. But they are good people, too.
10. In the end, the winner of this election will be Taiwan, the Taiwanese people, and Taiwan's future. Think positive, guys. This is another baby step for a growing democracy. Just 15 years ago, I would be arrested and jailed for writing this. In China even now, I would be CENSORED....

Has no one watched the movie "Wag the Dog"?

Images can be fabricated out of thin air, or better yet, well placed pixels. One would think that in a time in which readers are purported to be media and technology savvy that we'd all open up our eyes, ears and brains to reach our own conclusions and not the ones pushed onto us by propogandists, either for or against any one issue or group.

Keep in mind that those with their own interests are not above resorting to media manipulation, and unfortunately, sometimes, even at as venerable an institution as the NY Times, concerns about column inches can limit coverage. Do your own research, canvass all possible sources with multiple viewpoints.

BTW,

Has no one watched the movie "Wag the Dog"?

Images can be fabricated out of thin air, or better yet, well placed pixels. One would think that in a time in which readers are purported to be media and technology savvy that we'd all open up our eyes, ears and brains to reach our own conclusions and not the ones pushed onto us by propogandists, either for or against any one issue or group.

Keep in mind that those with their own interests are not above resorting to media manipulation, and unfortunately, sometimes, even at as venerable an institution as the NY Times, concerns about column inches can limit coverage. Do your own research, canvass all possible sources with multiple viewpoints.

The only true Taiwanese are the native. All others are rooted from China. If you are not the Taiwanese native, all go back where you come from. If not, try to get along peacefully.

Taiwan goverment should pass a new law before 2008 election which is similar to USA that only the native born Taiwanese citizens can qualify for candidates for president. KMT from China suppresses Taiwanese for more than 50 years since 1950. It is about time that Taiwanese can control their own desnation now. Let the young generation has a chance to keep improve Taiwan for the welfare of all Taiwanese residence!!

Taiwan: Recounts, fights, shredded democracy
By Laurence Eyton

TAIPEI - Taiwan is suffering its gravest political crisis in 25 years and on Tuesday three days after the disputed presidential election, this capital city was all but paralyzed by supporters of the losing side, protesting alleged irregularities in voting and demanding a recount. Both sides, while agreeing in principle on a recount, are wrangling over how to organize it, how long it will take and who will do it. Nobody knows. The law is silent: there has never been a national recount.

In a sign of how the situation has deteriorated, a fist fight broke out in the legislature Tuesday after President Chen Shui-bian, narrowly reelected Saturday, asked his governing Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) to introduce a revision to the election laws providing for recount. His proposed amendment would apply retroactively to his own case and would mandate a recount if the margin of victory was less than 1 percent.

Chen, who was shot in an apparent assassination attempt last Friday, the day before voting, was reelected by a margin of 0.228 percent over his challenger, Lien Chan of the opposition alliance of the Kuomintang (KMT) and People First Party (PFP), known as the pan-blues (from the color of the KMT emblem). The outcome was immediately rejected by the pan-blue losers. After small riots in two cities Saturday night and island-wide protests, Taipei is still in near paralysis.

Depending on where one stands in Taiwan's political spectrum - either with Chen's DPP and its allies, the so-called pan-greens (after the color associated with Taiwan independence) or the pan-blues - what is happening is either a party that failed at the ballot box attempting to organize a "people power"-style coup d'etat, or a party cheated at the ballot box demanding justice.

However this fracas is eventually resolved, and only now is it becoming clear how it might be, Taiwan's reputation as a model democracy has been shredded. This has major regional implications since it allows anti-democrats in Hong Kong to inveigh against its territories moving toward the entirely elected legislature that it is allowed under the basic law from 2007.

Setback to democratic tendencies in China
It also deals a major setback to vaguer hopes of democratizing tendencies in China itself, allowing leaders comfortable with authoritarianism to exploit traditional Chinese fears of social chaos as a reason for avoiding political change.

All this is rather beside the point in Taiwan itself however. Here the focus is on finding a solution to the current crisis that prevents it from spiraling into something much, much worse - ethnic violence or even civil war.

The fist fight on the floor of the legislature appeared to be a ruse by the pan-blues to force the president into dropping the idea of a revision to the law and instead declaring a "state of emergency" - which to all intents and purposes means martial law - and using the huge powers such a declaration would give him to order a recount on his own initiative. The DPP on Tuesday evening was mulling how to handle this challenge. It sees the pan-blue proposal as hugely damaging to the idea of democracy. The irony is that pan-blues governed under a state of emergency for 38 years in Taiwan's less democratic days.

The DPP is keen to get a recount under way, it says, since it has little to fear from the result. Whatever the result, Chen said at a Tuesday midday news conference, the DPP will abide by the result. But could the pan-blues give the same guarantee? As of Tuesday evening, there was no pan-blue response.

Talk of deepening crisis, ethnic violence or even civil war is not hyperbole. The fact that the situation has not turned seriously violent since Saturday night is largely because of the low-key attitude of the government. But as the pan-blue protests continue, the pan-greens are wondering whether they have to mobilize to protect their victory. "We are waiting for someone to give the word," one female DPP supporter told me Tuesday night. "My father and my brother are waiting for the word."

How responsible are the pan-blues?
Much depends on how responsible the pan-blues are. So far the evidence is ominous. Pan-blue demands have shown a lack of logic and the behavior of the pan-blue leaders has been incendiary. Their problem is that they have whipped up supporters to a fever pitch of indignation, promising that they will not stop their protests until their demands are met - while the machinery for meeting those demands in accordance with the law and the constitution is rather slow, and in some areas totally untested.

This means that they either hope to force the government to put aside parts of the election law to deal with the case speedily, which the greens and even dovish blues - there are some - see as a victory for mob rule. Or else they will have to tell their supporters to disperse on the basis of promises from a government they have spent the last 72 hours telling their supporters they cannot, under any circumstances, trust.

The pan-blues make claims not all of which are consistent either with the law or with each other, including:

That Friday's assassination attempt might have been staged to win a sympathy vote for the president and it was not right for the election to go ahead until all the details of the affair were known. Because of this they argue the election should be annulled.
That the margin of the pan-green victory - 30,000 votes out of 12.9 million cast - was so small that the votes should be recounted.
That the number of spoiled ballots at 310,000 was unusually high compared with past elections, and the ballots should be inspected and the votes recounted.
That the government raised the national security alert level after the president's shooting Friday, thereby unfairly preventing some 200,000 troops from voting. The election should be annulled and authorities should order a new vote in which the troops are allowed to vote.
That polling stations were badly run and the vote-counting systematically flawed, and for these reasons the election should be annulled and another one called.

Contradiction between recount and annulment
There is obviously a contradiction between wanting a recount of the ballots and wanting an election annulled - though pan-greens predictably claim the pan-blues will try to get the election annulled if a recount does not go their way. Confusingly, the pan-blues have launched legal action to bring about both eventualities.

In a meeting with foreign journalists Monday night, Lien Chan, KMT chairman and the pan-blues presidential candidate, seemed to imply that a recount of the ballot would suffice for the pan-blues to concede the election if necessary. But it appeared at the conference that neither he nor his running mate James Soong, chairman of the PFP, had actually given thought to the contradictory nature of their demands.

Taiwan's election laws do have ways in which the pan-blues' grievances might be addressed. But some of the complaints are simple non-starters. For example, an election cannot be canceled, even after an assassination attempt, unless the president is killed. So Chen's injury - he had a deep flesh wound in his stomach - did not constitute legal grounds for halting the voting Saturday. To have done what the pan-blues now suggest should have been done - and it is noteworthy that they made no suggestion of suspending polling before the election - was illegal.

Some pan-blues likened Chen to Hitler, Saddam
As to the idea that the attack was staged, that some people would think that Taiwan's president had himself shot in the stomach to win an election is comment more on the irrationality whipped up by the hysterical pan-blue election campaign - which likened Chen to Hitler and produced posters saying that Osama bin Laden approved his action and that his call for a referendum was a tactic he copied from Saddam Hussein. Former soldiers have pointed out that "shooting to injure" in the stomach doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

The complaint that 200,000 service personnel were unable to vote was a canard laid to rest Monday by the Ministry of National Defense. The heightened security status after the assassination did not affect troop deployment and only some 13,000 troops were unable to vote as a result if having to be in a state of combat readiness, which is standard procedure during a national election. Furthermore, even if the election were to be annulled and another one called, under Taiwan's laws (and all these laws were passed by the KMT when it was in office) only those who voted in the first election could vote in the second. So the troops still could not vote and pan-blue demands that they should be allowed to do so are basically demands for the government to set aside aspects of the election law that one of the contenders deems inconvenient.

The pan-blues are on firmer ground when it comes to irregularities with the voting. But there are a number of problems for the pan-blues that might well deny them the overturning of the election result they seek.

First there is simply no evidence of widespread tampering with the ballot. Taiwan's vote counting procedure is one of the most transparent in the world. Ballot boxes are opened in public. Ballots are withdrawn one by one and shown to the observers. The vote is read out and then credited to whichever side it supports. The openness and generally consensus nature of the counting - observers can protest if they see mistakes being made - means there is very little room for error.

Systemic fraud by DPP implausible
Secondly, the charge that has been widely believed by gullible visiting journalists, that the balloting and counting process was in the hands of the DPP and therefore liable to manipulation, is nonsense. The balloting and counting is carried out by local governments, usually using the help, on election day, of teachers from the schools which are usually where polling stations are situated. The majority of these local authorities are pan-blue controlled. A large number of local government workers are KMT members and, because of martial law-era discrimination against hiring native Taiwanese, a very large proportion of teachers are mainlanders and hard-line pan-blue supporters. The idea that there was systemic fraud by the DPP within such a system is highly implausible.

As for the high number of invalid ballots, Lee Tseng-tsai, secretary-general of the Kinmen County Election Commission, told Taiwan's Central News Agency that he thought the comparatively high ratio resulted from changes in the election laws passed by the pan-blue dominated legislature last October. The changes significantly tightened the criteria for ballot validity. In the past a ballot was valid if the ink stamp used to vote was placed not just in the appropriate box but also either on the number of the candidate or his picture. The idea was that if an intention to vote for a particular candidate was clear the vote would be counted. The reformed law made only ballots stamped in the proper box meant for the stamp would be considered valid. The March 20 election was the first under which this system had been used.

On top of the new stringency in voting procedures was also the action of a group of activists the Million Invalid Ballot Alliance, which was encouraging people to spoil their ballots as a protest against what they called "an unfair political system".

In theory what happens now should now be up to the courts. The pan-blues have filed their suits against the Central Election Commission. It should now be up to the courts to decide if there is a case to answer, hear evidence and make a judgment whether to annul the election in whole or in part or whether to order a recount, once again in whole or in part.

The Central Election Commission cannot administer the recount since it is the defendant in the pan-blue's legal suits. Yet the courts have neither the election-related expertise nor perhaps even the manpower to administer a recount. Each ballot will have to be counted in front of a judge or judges and a panel of observers. Some estimates say that 3,000 judges will be needed. The head of the Taoyuan County local government Chu Li-lun, himself a KMT member, estimates that in his county at least, given the facilities available, a recount would take a month. And the method he envisioned, delegating it to the county election authorities supervised by officers of the High Court, is far speedier than the pan-blues' preferred method - to have everything recounted by the High Court centrally in Taipei.

This story will not be over soon.

(Copyright 2004 Asia Times Online Co, Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact content@atimes.com for information on our sales and syndication policies.)

Hi, I posted the above LOOOONG article which I found quite interesting. If you didn't have time to read it all, try to go back to the underlined parts. Hope this has been helpful to you. I am glad there is active debate about this issue. After all, that is what democracy is all about... and I am sure, just 20 years ago we would not be able to do so, or risk being thrown in jail like Annette Lu and A-Bian!

Hi, sorry, just realised that the computer does not keep the underlined parts in that loooooong article