Posted by ZoinksScoob at 9/28/06 1:57 p.m.

I am a CHARTER SEAT season ticket holder, and got the full text of the message sent out that announced the retention of both Bill Bavasi and Mike Hargrove. As soon as I read it, I seriously reconsidered my season ticket package for next year. In my opinion, Messrs. Lincoln and Armstrong don't know anything about running a baseball team.

"Continuity of leadership" doesn't mean anything if that leadership is poor! Mike Hargrove single-handedly cost the Mariners at least 12 wins this season with his poor management of the pitching staff, leaving pitchers in the game far too long with no help warming up in the bullpen. He would wait until the barn burned down before even calling the fire department! His almost comatose, management-by-remote-control style is exactly the opposite of what is needed for this team.

As for Bavasi, he's made some good moves (Ibanez, Johjima, the initial signing of Guardao), but just as many if not more bad ones (Spiezio, Aurilia, Washburn, Everett, Bloomquist's multi-year deal, the Garcia trade, etc.) The simple fact is, he might have a good reputation for building a farm system (and the jury is definitely still out on that one here in Seattle), but in my opinion, he is woefully inept at filling out a major league roster properly.

Also, it's no secret that Ichiro is unhappy with the team's direction for the past few years, and specifically with Hargrove's management. He's a free agent after next season, and getting rid of Hargrove now would certainly have laid the groundwork for fruitful contract extension negotiations this winter. Now, there's a good possibility that Ichiro will be dealt prior to next season's trading deadline, since it's doubtful the team will be in contention again.

I feel that this move (or non-move, as it were) dooms the Mariners to mediocrity at best UNLESS they make significant additions to the on-field team, specifically two A-level starting pitchers (Jason Schmidt and Daisuke Matsuzaka come to mind) and a power-hitting outfielder, preferably left-handed (Aubrey Huff or Geoff Jenkins).

Lincoln and Armstrong were careful to stick the announcement of Bavasi's and Hargrove's retention into a bullet point in a list of bullet points, making sure it wasn't as prominent as it could have been. However, those of us who have been wasting money on attending M's games the last few years will certainly notice it. And I'm sure they'll notice it when season-ticket sales decline again for the third straight year. I'm sure they've noticed all the empty seats for the past 2 months... hope they get used to it for next year too.

A quick shout-out to Paul Allen: I think $700 million would take this team off of Nintendo's hands... and into the hands of someone who actually knows how to build a successful sports franchise.

Posted by jtlax at 9/28/06 2:05 p.m.

seriously...what the hell are they thinking?! I seriously hope that before too long they change their minds and at least can Hargrove. He is such a bore and doesn't really seem to care what happens on the field. We need a manager that will show emotion and tell it how it is. Not beat around the bush like Hargrove loves to do.

Posted by M's Defender at 9/28/06 2:13 p.m.

Well M's fans with this announcement of the retaining of Bill "Bonehead" Bavasi as GM and Mike "the loafer" Hargrove as team manager means the FO incompetency will continue and Profit is still the only goal and winning is NOT expected and expect more coaches to be fired as again an attempt to appease the fans and for appearance of doing something.
Meche will be resigned to a contract overpaying him and means more of same bad signings of overhill players and bad trades.FORGET SCHMIDT FORGET MATSUZAKA abandon all hope of the playoffs be prepared to get the more of the same PR with that familar odor about it.
More EXCUSES EXCUSES not RESULTS well this definately means Matsuzaka along with Zito is a either Yankee or worse an Angel with the noises their Owner Moreno is making.Another offseason where our division rivals get stronger and the M's act like it all sunshine and rainbows.
Lee will DH for a team willing to pay the bucks for his bat and Soriano tho I don't want him Seattle still I'd rather see him in a M's uni if he is to return to AL than see him in a Angel uniform.
Once again instead of running with youth first in ST a bunch of overhill vets will get NRIs and THEIR playing time to make the club cause of Grover interal hate of rookies.
I hereby predict another season of no higher than 3rd place but don't bet on it becausr Texas will make deals to insure they don't lose that spot.
The M's will once again finish 4th in AL west even if they have a .500 season(fat chance).Expect any and all TOR SPs to avoid Seattle and all Top tier FAs to refuse an M's offer no matter how good.
As long as the present ownership continues this course of operating and doesn't change the FO personnel from CEO Lincoln to the team manager the Seattle Mariners are doomed to fate of the Sonics and Storm to be sold and moved elsewhere all because of greed.

Posted by Vladina at 9/28/06 2:15 p.m.

From the two comments, I gather they think that Lincoln and Armstrong are sincere, and really think that Hargrove and Bavasi are adequate. And that's the naive kind of thinking that has kept attendance ridiculously high, for a really terrible team, deliberately kept terrible to feed a bottom line, that in its own way is as terrible as the "bottom lines" of Enron, Adelphia, Tyco, World.Com, etc. etc................

Posted by savannah at 9/28/06 2:17 p.m.

Look for a repeat by the M's in 2007.

Posted by Mariners Revolucion at 9/28/06 2:32 p.m.

Three last place finishes in a row gets you job security!?

You can guarantee two things with Bavasi and Hargrove at the helm.

1.Fans will not buy season tickets, and attendance will nosedive next year.

2.The Mariners will finish in last place in 2007.

Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong eliminated any remaining doubt that they were merely innocent bystanders of GM Bill Bavasi's repeated mistakes since 2004. The franchise's existence is now in serious jeapordy, as Lincoln and Armstrong have left the future in the hands of GM Bill Bavasi and Manager Mike Hargrove.

Management's incompetence clearly breeds from the top and trickles down onto the playing field. Fans and the entire Pacific Northwest deserve better than this.

Posted by Hank72 at 9/28/06 2:45 p.m.

Well, I guess after the 07 season Ichiro will be a free agent and sign with the Yankees or he will simply return to Japan. A player like Ichiro should finish his career in MLB with the M's. If the M's land Matsuzaka, Schmidt and a decent lefty power bat I may be willing to give Bavasi a pass, but we know that is unlikely. Grover is has a real luke warm present in the club house and it shows in the players. I really do hope that the FO will reconsider and fire him. There are so many better coaching options available for next season. If the M's sign with a bunch of washed up vets or mid-tier players next season they will only end up where they are at now next year. The M's better use their capital wisely this year and make some serious splashes in FA for next season.

Posted by ZoinksScoob at 9/28/06 2:54 p.m.

I, as much as anyone, want to see Bavasi and Hargrove gone. The one thing we have to consider, of course, is who would be brought in to replace both of them. I'd love the GM job myself, but being realistic, they would have to go outside the organization to bring in a fresh set of eyes, something the FO has been hesitant to do in the past.

As for Hargrove, I believe that the best candidate to replace him is Bobby Valentine. He's smart, aggressive and actually has emotions, something our past two managers certainly haven't had. He's also managed in Japan, meaning he would have a better rapport with players like ichiro and Johjima, and might actually serve as a good recruiter for Matsuzaka.

Of course, that won't happen... because Valentine is smart, aggressive, and has emotions. The FO seems to like milquetoast morons as their managers, especially since Piniella spouted off against them in his waning days here in Seattle. They don't want an independent thinker. they want a drone.

I would love to see Schmidt, Matsuzaka and Huff come here... but the retention of Bavasi and Hargrove may serve to act as deterrents to that. Thanks Howard and Chuck... you've screwed the M's for another season!

Posted by Chantel at 9/28/06 3:21 p.m.

In addition to keeping Hargrove, the M's will be serving 6 different varieties of vanilla ice cream at the park. Yay for vanilla goodness!

Seriously, this is horrid news. If Grover is so "uniquely qualified to manage a young team", then send him to the AquaSox. I'm sure he could run that team out of innings too!

Worst. Move. Ever.

*runs upstairs to cry her eyes out*

Posted by grover indian at 9/28/06 3:36 p.m.

You guys are just out of your minds!! Why is there THIS MUCH ANIMOSITY against Hargrove?? You got to understand that the expectation of this team was to be a .500 team this year, what the hell were you guys expecting, for them to win the World Series????? Barring an unfortunate road trip, Hargrove has done his job of meeting the expectations set for his club this year. And look who he is doing it with too, the Mariners don't have an explosive lineup nor do they have a lights out pitching staff. And Hargrove still made them a .500 team!!
Don't you see, this team HAS BEEN IMPROVING EVERY YEAR since Hargrove took over! Right now I admit that this team has issues to fix, but Bavasi will take care of that this offseason and next year the M's will come out firing from all cylinders! Two words for you guys: BE PATIENT!

Posted by jtlax at 9/28/06 3:51 p.m.

seriously? I swear grover indian is Hargrove himself. A good manager gets more than is expected out of his players. Going into the season the M's were expected to be a .500 team and because they finished right where people thought they would makes hargrove a good manager? that's horsesh*t. we need a manger like girardi that can take a bunch of youngsters and get them to compete. that's the sign of a good manager. GOOD ENOUGH ISN'T!!!

Posted by ZoinksScoob at 9/28/06 4:11 p.m.

Hargrove certainly did NOT get the best out of this team, because he didn't manage the team well at all. In obvious hit-and-run or straight steal situations, the M's baserunners stayed put. He let pitchers get destroyed in games when the bullpen could have and should have been starting to throw FAR earlier than they were. And, of course, there was the inexplicable overuse of Willie Bloomquist. My personal opinion is that Bloomquist has some sort of blackmail material over Hargrove that he's holding over his head to get more undeserved playing time.

Is it Hargrove's fault that the starting pitchers couldn't get out of the first inning without throwing 20 or more pitches most of the time? Is it Hargrove's fault that the team swung at entirely too many first pitches in situations where taking a pitch was pretty much mandatory? Not entirely, but the manager is in charge of the pitching coach and the hitting coach, and if the coaches aren't doing thier jobs, then the manager has to take on the responsibilities and/or get new coaches in there. It's called being PROACTIVE... something the Seattle dugout hasn't seen since the heyday of Lou Piniella back in 2001.

It's also something the Seattle FO would frown on... proactive behavior might indicate that the manager has a spine, something they obviously don't want.

As for being patient... we've been patient for 5 years while they failed to trade any of their "sure-fire" pitching prospects for players that might have gotten us over the top; none of those prospects ever worked out, by the way, dousing the claim that our farm system is in good shape.

If our farm system were in good shape, why don't we have more than ONE hitter who MIGHT hit 25 HR's at the major league level (with more than 100 strikeouts to boot)? Why have none of our pitching prospects worked out? If Bavasi is doing such a great job, then it's Hargrove's fault. If Hargrove is doing his best, then it's Bavasi's fault. In other words, if you don't blame both of them, then at least one of them is at fault and needs to go. Better to be rid of them both, start over with people who know what they're doing, and go on from there.

My guess is that the FO doesn't want to pay Hargrove to not manage the team next year. Pennywise, poundfoolish. It's a SUNK cost... you'll have to pay him whether or not he manages the team, and if the team is better off without out, it's a no-brainer. Bavasi's contract is supposedly up, but I've also heard that it's an open-ended contract. Time to close that end and move on.

I sincerely hope that the FO people read these blogs and understand what the "little people" think... you know, the ones that won't be buying the tickets and not coming to the games next year.

Posted by Chantel at 9/28/06 4:15 p.m.

"Eddie is still our closer" *sends JJ Putz out to mound*

"We're a better team with Eddie Guardado" *trades Eddie*

"Jones is here to play" *sends Adam back to Tacoma*

"We didn't bring Chris here to sit down" *benches Snelling*

"We're happy with our rotation. Joel is a big part of what we do" *Sends Pineiro to bullpen*

Please --- for the love of all that is Holy ----

"Bill Bavasi and Mike Hargrove will come back to lead the Mariners next year" *FIRES Bavasi and Hargrove*

Oh...why the animosity? Because Hargrove is the worst in-game manager in baseball. Because he left the sucking vortex that was Carl Everett in the lineup against all available evidence. Because he goes to Julio "Moonshot" Mateo in crucial situations. Because he keeps his butt planted on the bench no matter how much the team needs him to be animated. In short...

Why so much animosity for Grover???
Because he sucks!! What other reason do you need??

Posted by DavidGee24 at 9/28/06 4:53 p.m.

Yay, grover indian is back! No doubt that after embarassing himself repeatedly on this blog, he took a sabbatical to work on his booger castle.

I can't believe this move, either. With Bavasi, ask this question: have most of his moves been successes or failures? Somebody research every free-agent signing and trade he's made. M's Defender will take care of that. I will too when I find some time.

Even though some of his moves should have worked out better than they did (Beltre, Washburn, Spiezio), let's took at his score and then pass judgement.

As for Hargrove, five, six straight losing seasons now? And as for this "Mariners expected to be a .500 team" crap, look at their roster and compare it with the rest of the AL West. Could this team, with good to excellent management, have won the West this year? Many would say yes.

I think the bottom line here is the 0-11 road trip through the West when it really mattered and Hargrove kicking back and saying that's the way the ol' mop flops.

Oh well, let's see what the offseason brings and hope for the best.

Posted by M's Defender at 9/28/06 5:57 p.m.

DavidGee24 Just by looking at the PI sports page since opening day in April and one already knows the overall mess Bavasi has caused.Not mention what Grover the loafer has contributed with his 100% by the book managing and non interest in the events of a game.
This seasons busts
Everett cost a prime SS prospect in Cabrera and misued prospect in Choo to aquire Perez/Broussard combo instantly affected by Safeco and Groverization.
Look at all the bad contracts over the tender of Bavasi that have to be add to payroll so the money wasn't there to sign Tejada,or able aquire trades that required cash to make work etc.......
Not mention all the busts he signed starting in '04,his penchant for signing excessive #s of NRIs for ST thus making sure any young desevring farm hands positions not withstanding never get a fair shot at a job in ST.
Grover is a man beggin to be fired but won't show the cogones to resign why he doesn't want to lose that salary for '07.
The man has his game losers list pitchers he knows will give up runs in a game or pitchers who he overuses and those her underuses in the 7 man pen.
The fact he'd rather run out Bloomquist rather than give a young player a chance rookie call ups ride pine with Grover unless he has no CHOICE.
Bavasi say He is ACCEPTING of young players LIES LIES LIES Bavasi is looking thru rose colored glasses.Grover benched Choo played him in CF while he failed,Jones was showing signs of coming around both with glove and bat also benched,and finally if Ichiro had moved to CF Snelling would still be a bench warmer etc.....
Incompetency is the hallmark of this ownership and FO with the yes man prefered over the thinker who may just actually know how to build and/or manage a winner a champion.

Posted by DavidGee24 at 9/28/06 7:14 p.m.

I still say we need to make a scoreboard and prove statistically that Bavasi is well under .500

Posted by Sowulo at 9/28/06 7:20 p.m.

'tis yet another sad day for M's fans...... ;-(

Posted by John H at 9/28/06 8:27 p.m.

I think the message is that the ultraconservatives who make the ultimate spending decisions believe that the best leadership is no leadership. Hargrove isn't incompetent; he's generic, just like Melvin. Oh sure, Hargrove can be directly blamed for a handful of losses (e.g. a couple of losses in the series in Baltimore when he never used Putz), but he's competent enough to get a team into the postseason. He will take a team with .600 talent to a .585 winning percentage. This year he took a team with .500 talent to a .480 winning percentage. He won't hurt a team much; he won't help a team at all.

Hargrove has made most of the right moves. He's just so conservative that he's made them too late. Examples are moving Guardado out of the closer role, moving Ichiro to CF, taking Everett out of an everyday role, taking Piniero out of the rotation... If he had the courage to take decisive action, the team would have finished at least 530. Wouldn't you love to see a conservative manager have the guts and the brains to give a hitter like Betancort the take sign in obvious take situations? How many more games could a team like Ms win if the free-swingers were forced to exercise some plate discipline? If they're gonna pay Mike to be in the dugout, I wish he would actually manage.

Bavasi, on the other hand, seems to have fewer or weaker skills than his peers in the industry. In particular, he's a poor judge of talent. He doesn't seem to understand how much better the AL is than the NL, nor does he have a good grasp on the bell curve of player aging. Those sub-par skills have resulted in a series of inappropriate contracts and unfavorably balanced trades.

With Bavasi staying, I fear that he will sign Schmidt and Eaton, players from WA who are overvalued in the marketplace. Jason Schmidt will be 34 in '07. He's nowhere near as good as he was at his peak 4 years ago. He's likely to fade rapidly at his age. Even if he doesn't, his ERA will rise a run in the AL, meaning he'll be as good as the '06 Jake Woods at 20 times the salary. Eaton spent 6 years in SD, a great pitchers' park, and never had an ERA under 4. He's over 5 this year. He peaked at 11 wins and has never pitched 200 innings. I moaned when Bavasi signed Aurilia, Spiezio, Lawton, Everett, et al. This time, I'm first-guessing him before he does something stupid.

Posted by majikman01 at 9/28/06 11:44 p.m.

I just can't believe it! Keeping Hargrove is a terrible mistake. I can elaborate, but that's already been done by most of the previous posters.

I just want to add a few things.

M's is not for Mariners, it's for the Seattle Milquetoasts, or Seattle Mediocres.

As has been pointed out, Melvin first and now Hargrove have both been good little managers that did nothing, or at the least, very little.

Hargrove is a mis-manager. Bad decisions about pitching, who to play, where to play them, etc. Starting pitching finished the year in RUINS! Meche can't stay focused long enough to tie his shoes. Pineiro...I don't even want to go there. It seems like he just didn't care. They both have great stuff, so why didn't they do better...lack of desire. Might be Rafey Chavez needs to leave too.

There is a lack of passion, and a lack of desire to be a winner. And that starts at the top. Armstrong and Lincoln both don't seem to care about anything more then the bottom line. Wake up and smell the pine tar guys. This city wants a winner. We have been patient way too long. The "wait till next year" just doens't cut it.

When this team shops for talent, way to often they shop at Wal-Mart and not Nordstrom's. Bargain basement gets you the BASEMENT! From where I sit, the cellar is just way to bleak.

This has to stop! Bring in a manager that has a fire to win in his belly. Maybe we got a little too spoiled when we had Lou, but for cryin' out loud, bring in a guy that will instill that kind of fire in his players, kids and vererans alike.

While that would be a good thing, I don't think it will happen. Armstrong and Lincoln seem to want someone that will cow-tow to them, somebody that will be a little yes man like we've seen the last four seasons. I'm sorry guys, but you can't expect everyone to kiss your collective butts if you want a winner. Someone that stands up to that corporate rhetoric of yours and cares about winning.

Moreover, someone that will do something about it.

As for Bavasi, I don't blame him for everything. If you're told that you have to stay within the budget to be profitable, don't go a penny over that, your hands have been tied.

It amazes me that Lincoln and Armstrong can't see the forest for the trees. Attendance is down, less money comes into the house. Less on tickets, less on concessions. A vicious downward spiral occurs. Spend the money both on players and a TOP-NOTCH manager and you build a winner. Fans come to the games in droves and they spend money, lots of it.

How many of us have gone to games over the years? I see by a show of hands, quite a few of us.

Before the game you hear Tom Hundler (SIC) on the PA saying, "we want you to enjoy your EXPERIENCE at Safeco Field (sorry about the paraphrasing)." I have to say that I really love going to the ballpark, but what kind of fun experience is it in early April, or late in September; when in a lot of cases, the weather is chilly and even rainy, and the M's are getting blown out early and often? Do you want to stay there till the end of the game? Are you really, really enjoying your experience? Sorry, but I think not.

Lastly...The bottom line is if these guys care about winning, they need to proove it or there will be nobody left to prove it to.

This just makes me sick.

Posted by ZoinksScoob at 9/29/06 12:15 p.m.

We need management that cares, but we also need management that is smart and has fire. None of the managers that have been brought in since Piniella have been any of those things. Simple mistakes are made all the time by Hargrove, and that happens... but he makes the same ones over and over again. If it's obvious to us, the "non-baseball" people, why isn't it obvious to the people running the show? It may very well be, but they're not disposed to doing anything about it. Bobby Valentine is smart, but they don't want a manager who is smarter than they are. That's the problem Davey Johnson had to deal with in NY, Cincinnati and Baltimore: he was always smarter than the owners and FO guys, they resented him, and so he was canned, even with a winning record at every stop. Welcome to our world.

But they not only need management to have fire, they need PLAYERS with fire. Has anyone noticed that when the Mariners win and the players gather to celebrate on the field, Ichiro stands alone and aloof from them? He's supposed to be a team leader (he's certainly paid like one), but really hasn't done much to endear himself to the other players, the coaches, or the fans for that matter. The young guys like Betancourt and Lopez can't be leaders yet. Sexson, Beltre and Ibanez are too laid back. Ichiro showed that kind of ardor and fire during the World Baseball Classic, but none of it carried over here. The closest thing they have to a clubhouse leader right now is Eduardo Perez, who is a free agent at the end of the year, and is certainly not guaranteed to be back next year with Mike Morse read to fill the exact same role at a much cheaper price.

They made a well--intentioned but misguided attempt to get some spark this year with the signing of Carl Everett. Someone in one of the papers (can't remember who, maybe Art Thiel) described it as adding a dash of jalapeno to the Mariners' tapioca clubhouse. It was a very apt metaphor, because jalapeno can add some spice to things, but it can sour them as well, which is exactly what should have been expected, and exactly what occurred.

That's why I like the idea of bringing in Jason Schmidt, who could definitely act as the "front-man" for the pitching staff, and trading for Geoff Jenkins, who leaves his heart out on the field when he plays. I think that the fans would react well to both of those players, and that they would be positive and enthusiastic additions to the clubhouse.

Posted by DavidGee24 at 9/29/06 1:33 p.m.

Carl Everett definitely had some fire in him...too bad his bad was as cold as a popsicle. I still have to research Bavasi's scoreboard, but that one is definitely a negative.

I didn't realize that Schmidt is 33. Ugh. That means if the M's sign him for four or five years, we should get a couple good ones and are basically hoping for more. Look at Washburn, he stunk this year and he's 33, right?Maybe concentrate our efforts more on Matsuzaka?

Posted by DavidGee24 at 9/29/06 2:05 p.m.

Okay, I had to do M's Defender's job and do the research lol. It appears that Bavasi has signed eight free agents who were expected to play prominent roles on the team, maybe nine if you count Jake Woods as a left-handed specialist.

Of those eight, Sexson (although he had a bad first half), Johjima, and Guardado (for two years) were what we hoped for. Beltre, Washburn, Everett, Spiezio and Aurilia were not.

Now, even though that's 5-3 against, Spiezio and Aurilia were COMPLETE DISASTERS, with nobody to counter this (e.g., Sexson hitting .300 with 50 bombs), so this is a bad 5-3 against.

Bavasi has made it appears four trades in which he traded prominent players for other (expected) prominent players. The Moyer and Guardado trades at this point don't count.

Of those five, not one has paid dividends. Not ONE. On the other hand, the Garcia and Guillen trades have been disasters, and getting Foppert for Winn isn't going to amount to anything. The only trade that might pay off is Choo for Broussard, so let's be nice and call it 3-1 against. With two complete disasters and no "steals".

Welcome back, Bavasi. Don't let the door hit you on the way in.

Posted by grover indian at 9/29/06 3:40 p.m.

NO YOU DON'T GET THE POINT! You can't just say Hargrove sucks and leave it at that! What stupid decisions has he made?? So far I've counted zero. And even if he did make "mistakes" it only proves he's human; every manager makes mistakes, I don't know if ANY manager will satisfy you.
The way I see it he took a pretty raw team and molded it into a good team with a bright future. OF course this team still has issues, but that's how a team rises to the top, first they have to improve on their weaknesses. This isn't a process that takes 1 year; no it takes several years. Seattle has progressively gotten BETTER AND BETTER each year. I see a positive correlation there, what the hell are you guys seeing?

You say Grover sits on the bench and shows no emotion, I bet you never have gone to an M's game in your life! Grover can be seen pacing up and down when his starter is struggling and he frequently talks to the players and coaches. He doesn't sit there like a dummy like you guys say he does. So please come up with some better arguments, I mean yours right now are all a whole bunch of bullcrap.

Posted by DavidGee24 at 9/30/06 4:15 a.m.

I just love this guy. He says the same thing every time even with Hargrove's horrible record staring right at him. Then he says stuff that has no application whatsoever, like no manager would satisfy us. I seem to remember a Lou Piniella that we kinda liked.

Obviously the booger castle has been completed. Hmmm, I think the moat needs to be filled...

Posted by 20yrsubvet at 9/30/06 5:05 a.m.

I fail to see how finishing dead last for the 3rd year in a row, in what is one of the weakest division in baseball, is making "progress". I do go to games (I drive up from Vancouver) and Hargrove is barely one step above completely incompetent. I cannot put all the blame on him though, a lions share of that needs to go to a FO that is more interested in being profitable than in winning a championship.

Posted by Sowulo at 9/30/06 7:39 a.m.

"I don't want to leave any doubt in anybody's mind," Lincoln said. "Mike Hargrove and Bill Bavasi are on my hot seat, and I expect that they are going to work even harder than they're already working to produce the results the fans and, I think, the ownership group expects."

Note that last part. This tells you all you need to know about Howard Lincoln and the M's management team--Howard Lincoln isn't himself sure the ownership group expects better results????? WTF?

Posted by ZoinksScoob at 9/30/06 9:35 a.m.

This one is directed at Grover Indian...

YOU WANT SPECIFICS? Here's specific: it's the top of the 6th inning. Gil Meche has already thrown 95 pitches with the score 3-2 Mariners. NO ONE is warming up in the bullpen because Mike Hargrove is sitting with his thumbs implanted firmly up his butt in the dugout. The first batter strokes a line drive hit to right field. He walks the next batter. Not only does Hargrove not get anyone up in the bullpen, he doesn't send Chaves out to talk to Meche to calm him down or give him some advice. The next batter strokes a hit to the left-center field alley and the tying run scores, and now runners are on first and third.

NOW someone finally gets up in the bullpen, but Meche faces at least two more hitters, and the score is now 5-3 against the Mariners.

Know why I didn't name a specific team this was against? Because you could substitute ANY starter's name into this scenario, and it would still be true.

I say this having attended 79 out of 81 games last year and well over 70 games this year. I sit in the 10th row behind 3rd base, so I'm looking directly into the M's dugout. I see the brown stains on Hargrove's thumbs!!!

This is not only undefendable, it's ridiculous. If Lincoln's "short leash" were as short as he claims it is, neither Bavasi nor Hargrove would be back next year. The team has won as many games as it has DESPITE these two, not because of them.

Oh, for DavidGee... you missed one key free agent: Raul Ibanez. Bavasi signed him the same winter as Guardado, Spiezio and Aurilia. So you can give him credit for one more.

However, let's not forget his trades:

Jeff Cirillo, Brian Sweeney and cash to San Diego for Wiki Gonzalez, Dave Hansen, Kevin Jarvis and Vince Faison (you give us your trash, we'll give you yours).
Aaron Looper and Ryan Ketchner for Jolbert Cabrera (ok, a decent one)
Mike Myers to Boston for cash.
Randy WIlliams to SD for Billy Hogan.
Aaron Taylor to Colorado for Sean Green.
Freddy Garcia and Ben Davis to the White Sox for Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo and Mike Morse... that's a BIG loser.
Randy Winn to San Francisco for Yorvit Torrealba and Jesse Foppert.
Ron Villone for Yorman Bazardo and Michael Flannery.
Miguel Olivo for Miguel Ojeda and Nathaniel Mateo.
Yorvit Torrealba for Marcos Carvajal (who Bavasi designated for assignment and traded to TB for a lesser pitching prospect, Jorge de la Cruz).
Matt Thornton to the White Sox for Joe Borchard... how long was he on the team?
Shin-Soo Choo to Cleveland for Ben Broussard (actually, not bad, considering how Choo has played for Cleveland, though Broussard can't seem to get on track in Safeco).
Asdrubal Cabrera to Cleveland for Eduardo Perez.

In short, for the most part, I don't think that Bavasi could trade his way out of a paper bag.

Posted by Mariners Revolucion at 9/30/06 10:37 a.m.

Shin Soo Choo

In 138 at bats in Cleveland,
Choo is hitting .290/.373/.449

Ben Broussard

In 158 at bats in Seattle,
Ben is hitting .234/.281/.418

Posted by Fledie2004 at 9/30/06 12:07 p.m.

If the M's sign Gary Matthews Jr., I will never go to another M's game again.

Posted by theedge98074 at 9/30/06 12:26 p.m.

Until this team is sold to an ownership that wants to WIN, and not just put people in the seats they will never win it all. These are the most condensending people in the world. And, for some reason, this town buys into the "sodo mojo".

Posted by M's Defender at 9/30/06 1:39 p.m.

I love the statement coming out of CEO Lincoln's mouth "Both manager and GM are on my "hot seat" ".
I just about fell out of bed laughing when I read that in this morning's PI who is this guy think he's fooling.What hot seat Lincoln doesn't have one if he does it sure must be comfortable.
If he meant ONE word of that PR driven butt covering statement Hargrove would have been fired and Bavasi put on notice with fail to sign Schmidt at least you're next.That's putting a GM on the HOT SEAT not retain both of them.

Posted by Hank72 at 9/30/06 2:20 p.m.

I guess we can all complain as much as we want, but that won't change the fact that dumb (Grover) and dumber (Bavasi) are here to stay. Having said that as least the M's have avoided another 90-loss season. There have been some improvements. The two keeps telling us fans that they are committed to winning so lets see if they can put their money where their mouth is.

If the organization goes out and makes some big (and I mean BIG) splashes in the FA market then I think we can cut them a little slack. By big I mean landing Schmidt, Matsuzaka, and someone on the caliber of Soriano for a power bat. I think anything less for a 95mil payroll and all their rhetoric about "winning and being committed" would be a severe disappointment. As disappointment I am about the announcement of Bavasi and Grover staying at this point now is all we fans can do is watch and see. Maybe Grover will do us all a favor and retire and move back to Cleveland.

Posted by DavidGee24 at 9/30/06 2:36 p.m.

Wow...how did I miss Ibanez? That's a grover indian-class brain fart right there. Maybe it just felt like he never left. Better go wash the brown off my thumbs.

Posted by Johns123 at 9/30/06 11:54 p.m.

This is the most disappointing news that Mariner fans could receive.

This team is not making progress. It finished in last place just like last year and the year before that. Does anyone in the FO ever watch these games? Take a peek in the dugout, it looks like everyone could use a prescription for depressants. Wouldn't it be nice for someone to just kick some dirt on Grover. If he doesn't move, bury him. Maybe we could get Lou for a day. We see what happens if you do not buy into Grover's pacifity, Exit Rohn. Apparently, success at any level in this organization will not be tolerated.

I had a very apprehensive feeling coming back from Spring Training. I wasn't to be disappointed. Everyone had to know Reed would never be an adequate center fielder. Why did we waste so much of our resources on DH's. That is what Raul is. It makes me think of the old days when we always had at least four DH's wandering around on the field.

The concept of market share escapes this FO. I am not looking forward to spring training 2007.

Posted by cewl20 at 10/1/06 12:24 a.m.

Hmmm, well deja vu. I knew as soon as this blog was posted the same old crap that has been said time and again would be posted. M's Defender, stop with the nicknames for Hargrove and Bavasi, we get it, they're dumb.

We all knew Lincoln was going to keep these two, so why complain? Where are these expectations coming from? This is why Seattle has some of the most faithful fans, because there are a lot of false hopes out there. But that is why we are fans, and that is why we stick with the team no matter how poorly they play and/or are managed. If 2007 is a bust, then Hargrove and most likley Bavasi are out, simple as that.

Blomquist, is one of if not the best utility player in the mlb. Is he worth having on the team? You bet. Get off his back. Granted he is a little overused, but that is because some guys don't play a whole hell of a lot better than he does.

The Freddy Garcia was a dandy trade. Morse and Reed are enormously talented and would thrive on any other team. Just so happens that the Mariners are not one of those teams. And Olivo has turned into a solid catcher for Florida. So hey...

Forget Choo, its not like he'd ever be a franchise player anyways. And I hated Matt Thorton, good riddance.

Ichiro will play CF which means Aubrey Huff would be the best candidate for the RF job. Plus he's a lefty with decent power. Only thing is that he is injury prone, so don't give him more than a 2-year deal.

Meche will be resigned and probably over-paid too. Washburn will bounce back and Baek and Hernandez will be sensacional if kept healthy next year. Bring on Matsaku too...

JJ is not a true closer, but he should do a good enough job for the year next year. Watch for Soriano to be the new closer in a few years.

Seattle will be an 80+ wins team next year and will play the west a lot tougher, leading the Mariners into the mix with 2 weeks to go in baseball. Having said that, I fear we won't quite make it. Watch out for Beltre to be this years Ibanez.

Posted by mnty718 at 10/1/06 11:18 a.m.

Hey guys! Remember me? I'm back after taking a break from the M's. Boy were they just boring me out like crazy! I lost interest in this team, I could sense another disappointing season. The Supersonics suck at basketball, that team bored me out last year. However, at least the Seahawks are good, I can pay attention to them. So far they are 3-0 and tonight they play a huge game against the Bears.

Sorry, I digress. Anyway, how about this Mariners team? I heard they are going to finish in the bottom of the AL West cellar again. AGAIN! In 2003 the M's got in the playoffs and since then they have steadily been going down. Not steadily, I mean plummeting down! I don't care what Grover Indian says about this team making progress. All this team is doing is SLOWLY climbing out of a deep hole that Bavasi dug them into after 2003. And I heard Bavasi and Hargrove are going to stick around next year!! Since they came here wins have been scarce and the team has been losing money and fans in the seats. I call the Hargrove/Bavasi period the Great Depression. But as the saying goes and has been going for the past 3 years: There's always next year!

Posted by Fledie2004 at 10/1/06 12:48 p.m.

The M's have not made the playoffs since 2001.

MNTY718 - please continue with your break and don't come back.

Posted by Sowulo at 10/2/06 11:58 a.m.

^^^That was totally uncalled for^^^

...especially from one I don't remember having seen "contribute" to these blogs at any time in the past.

Posted by M's Defender at 10/2/06 12:22 p.m.

Now the season is done and the FO have successfully delivered yet another 4th place finish and profit margin is safe.Lincoln has retain Hargrove and Bavasi despite their utter incompetence and proven losing ways.
However there are major POSITIVES this season DESPITE that and they are as follows:
1)The club got younger and some of the driftwood was sent packing prior to becoming overcostly (Guardado,Everett,etc....).
2)The farm system has proven stronger and is starting to produce rotation/bullpen/bench/positions help.
3)Despite instead of him the M's managed to win 9 GAMES more this season thus avoiding 90 losses for 1st time since '03.The record of 78-84 was well within the ST prediction I made of a .500 season with a margin of over/under 4 to 6 games and is in fact abit better.
4)There is definate desire by Jason Schmidt to pitch for the M's and tho the rumor is he seeks 4 yrs/48-52 mil I sure with the right approach he'll settle for say 4 yrs/38-42 mil.(this is strictly speculation on my part)
5)The signs are good that the FO will pursue a LH power bat to play either corner OF and DH with the advent of Ichiro's agreement to play CF.This does make Reed trade bait and gives Adam Jones more time to develop and mature at AAA.
6)The most important move of the entire offseason must be without question the successful aquirement of both his posting rights and sign him long term of Japanese ace Matsuzaka.The price for failing to do it should be automatic firing of the entire M's FO by owership.

Posted by Tumbleweed at 10/2/06 4:42 p.m.

As in life, there are many forks in the road we can take. The Mariners are faced with such forks...

1) Matsuzaka...My first advise, do anything and everything (if he is posted)to get him in a Mariners uniform....people are saying it will take 25M just to talk to him...then I say we offer 30M to ensure he is in teal not pinstripes! I mean what 5M to get the best pitcher available..if you don't believe that, just check what he did in th World Baseball Classic.
2) Bring home Jason Schmidt...we can not afford to gointo 2007 with Hernandez/Washburn/Baek (or Woods)as our best pitchers..we have screwed this up in the past and settling for the leftovers, well make this winter the year we build a rotation worthy of competing in the toughest division in baseball.
3) Bring us a LF (switch hitting) power hitting stud!
I am not sure who is available yet, but we need a big stick..if he isnt LF, then bring in Lee or Soriano...
4) No bargain basement players..this must be a priority to be the biggest player in FA's this winter...Let this be the milestone that we look back on and say, "Thats when Bavasi did something right for a change".
5) Final note, brink in Mel Stottelmyer as a becnh or pitching coach...this team needs some fire and post season experience!
Lets warm up the stove!

Posted by w Traveler at 10/3/06 11:22 a.m.

Hargrove keeps using the 11 game losing streak as what ruined the Ms this year. I agree, but only in part--the other obvious reason was that we could not beat the Oakland As. What the Mariners and every team needs is a "stopper." A guy that every five days can stop a losing streak. We can solve both problems by outbidding everybody--including the As for Barry Zito. He is a genuine stopper. But we need TWO front line pitchers. Matsuzaka is a good choice because of our Japanese ownership. The lad CAN pitch! He can be had, assuming his Japanese team will "give" him up. Jason Schmidt had a pretty high ERA by National league standards this year and you can add at least a half run per game if pitching in the American League. He would be my third choice if no other reason than I'm nervous about National league players lack of production for us in the past. Which brings me to my final point and that is a lack of leadership on the field. The players that should be producing are SELFISH. They don't know how to be a team member. Hargove needs to chew b*TTs regularly, and be the leader we are paying him for. Forget about asking Ichiro what he wants to do. Play him in center field or trade him. If you want him to steal bases, give him the steal sign and fine him if he does not follow it. We treat him beter than we did Griffy and HE was really spoiled. Richie Sexon said he was proud of the year he had in Seattle this year. I was not. He hit when we did not need the hits and did not produce when the games were meaningful. When we needed a ground ball to the right side of the infield or sac fly to score a run, Richie was swinging for the fences. Adrian Beltre had the same kind of year, except his hitting started when the games did not mean anything. Other players on the team were looking out for their own stats instead of giving up hits for driving in a run with an out. Hargrove needs to get his starters out sooner when they are getting pounded. Use up the bullpen and if needed, go to the minors and bring someone up. It does no good to try to come back from a 6 run deficit in the 3rd inning and leave a starter in just to eat up innings. Vavasi does not know how to close a deal on a quality player--or Lincoln is slowing him down, or both. In summary, new leadership is needed. Bring back Lou and he'll have the players producing and leaning on the front office all year to get players.

Posted by M's Defender at 10/4/06 2:28 p.m.

I readed in this morning's PI Licoln say he is as ACCOUNTABLE as Bavasi and Hargrove if the club doesn't make '07 the breakout yr for the M's.
OK if he REALLY means that and it's not just another PR ploy to fool and pacify the fans and Media.I say he should publicly announce he will fire both Bavasi and Hargrove on June 1,2007 and resign himself if the M's are more than 8 games out of 1st at that point.
Put your job and the rest of FO's jobs on the line then I might believe your statements not before.

Posted by trueScot at 10/7/06 6:58 p.m.

Unless Adam Jones takes over the center fielder position during spring training next year, I hope that the Mariners go out in the free agent market or via trade and pick up an outfielder. Snelling, Morse, or Bohn will not get the job done.

Posted by Hank72 at 10/7/06 10:46 p.m.

Early sources for ESPN believes that Joe Torre will be fired and replaced by Lou Pinella. God, I hate the Yankees.

Posted by M's Defender at 10/9/06 3:09 p.m.

Hank72 as to this Torre being fired and replaced by Piniella rumor goes it's been brought every year after the Yankees are eliminated in the playoffs or lose the World Series.
It has been brought up for the last 7 to 8 years even when Piniella was managing the M's that's how old it is.
However I understand one of teams bidding for Piniella's services is the Texas Rangers pray that he doesn't take that job.
As to hating the Yankees welcome to the club I'm so happy they've be eliminated and have to face Steinbrunner's wrath for their failure.The thought of him with his blood pressure in outer space and about to bust a blood vessal is such as pleasant image.

Posted by Hank72 at 10/10/06 6:54 p.m.

Well, looks like the Yanks will keep Torre. Lincoln, there is still time to ask Grover for his resignation. M's Defender - I hope Lou do not go to the Rangers.

*Matsuzaka have been given permission by the Seibu Lions to pursue a career in the major! Tokyo (AP) Let the bidding begin!

Posted by Tumbleweed at 10/11/06 9:00 a.m.

With the Yankees pitching staff in a mess, we must make sure they do not out bid us! I hope that all the top brass in the Mariners org, do their research and make the highest bid...this is a major turning point in the Mariners history....what we do will weigh heavy on the M's future....I hope we look back on this day and remember how we stole the 2007 Rookie of the Year from the Yankees (and anyone else who bids for his services)!

Posted by M's Defender at 10/11/06 12:26 p.m.

Hank72 and Tumbleweed I fully agree if the M's are going to prove they have decided to put the entire FO on the so called "hot seat" the best way to prove that change in attitude is by POSTING and SIGNING Daisuka Matsuzaka to fill one of the two TOR SP holes the M's have.
There is absolutely NO excuse or explaination for failing to aquire him except to confirm the incompetence of a gredy FO and ownership.

Posted by thegriff at 10/11/06 4:23 p.m.

SOS&S - FREE FOOD, DRINK SPECIALS & PRIZES

Thursday night (tomorrow) there is a SAVE OUR SONICS & STORM rally at Goofy's Sports Bar (8519 15th Ave NW; Seattle, WA 98117) from 5pm to 7pm. There will be FREE FOOD and DRINK SPECIALS.

SOS&S will also be raffling off a number of Sonics merchandise including:
-Two tickets to Opening Night against Brandon Roy and the Blazers!
-Sonics T-shirt autographed by Ray Allen!
-Sonics poster autographed by Luke, Nick and Ray!
-A SOS&S long sleeved shirt signed by Slick Watts!

Slick Watts is planning on attending our rally for any fans who would like to meet him. Slick Watts is a Sonics Legend and the Director of Community Relations for Save Our Sonics and Storm.

After the rally, everyone is welcome to come to Councilmember Nick Licata's Q&A session located at Olympic View Elementary. Interested parties who cannot attend the earlier rally are still encouraged to attend this meeting and show their support.

What: Save Our Sonics and Storm Fan Rally
When: Thursday, October 12, 5pm
Where: Goofy's Sports Bar (8519 15th Ave NW; Seattle, WA 98117)
Why: FREE FOOD, DRINK SPECIALS & PRIZES

What: Open Round Table with Councilman Nick Licata
When: Thursday, October 12, 7-8:30pm
Where: Olympic View Elementary (504 NE 95th St; Seattle , WA 98133)
Why: Because you want to your elected representatives to keep the teams here!

For additional information please contact info@saveoursonics.org or brian@sonicscentral.com. Media with interview requests may also contact Brian Robinson via phone at 206-349-6447.

Posted by ZoinksScoob at 10/11/06 6:49 p.m.

I certainly hope that the M's put up the posting fee and pursue Daisuke Matsuzaka. Given the fact that we effectively have Japanese ownership (they can call it Nintendo of America all they want... it's Nintendo, and Nintendo is a Japanese company), huge marketing deals with Japanese television networks and sponsors, and two of the biggest stars from Japanese baseball, it makes a lot of sense. The increase in marketing dollars from across the ocean alone could subsidize a significant portion of both the posting fee and large contract Matsuzaka will command.

HOWEVER, before signing Matsuzaka to a 5-year or 6-year contract, I would require him to come to Seattle and undergo a thorough series of medical exams, including (but not limited to) what would amount to a FULL-body MRI, inspection and tests of every major joint, ligament, tendon and bone in his body, and specifically his fingers, wrist, elbow, shoulder, hips, knees and feet.

Why? As good as he's been, he's logged a LOT of innings for a 26-year-old, and I would be very concerned about his arm blowing apart a year or two into the contract. Given the way Hargrove seems to manage (or, more accurately, MISmanage) his pitching staff, I would be very worried about abuse.

All that being said, though, I watched the YouTube video of his "gyroball"... filthy, absolutely filthy. We gotta get this guy.

Posted by Tumbleweed at 10/12/06 11:44 a.m.

Thanks ZoinksScoob, I also went to YouTube to watch him pitch. He looks very impressive, I especially like the pitching against Cuba....His "Gyro" Ball is like a slurve, it curves, drops and totaly fools the hitter. He has a very good fastball 91-94 mph and keeps his cool as in one video several errors are committed behind him, yet he pitched with composure until he was hit in the arm and had to leave...
I recommend not watching the video by anyone else, as if you do you will also salivate over the idea of him pitching in a Mariners uniform....we can only hope..does anyone know when the posting starts and when it closes?

Posted by M's Defender at 10/12/06 1:43 p.m.

Tumbleweed the word "NASTY" doesn't begin to descible Matsuzaka stuff.This guy is down right filthy and has ice water for blood under pressure.He face the best the world had to offer in WBC and made them look like little leaguers.The thought of him in a M's uniform makes me believe despite Grover we'll at least contend with 85+ wins.
However I do agree with ZoinksScoob in that should the M's win his rights before signing him to more than a 4 yr contract that he be examined from head to toe with every device available to check on his durability and make sure nothing is a injury waiting to happen.
Especially the way the Seibu Lions required him to pitch those many innings and high pitch counts of 110+.

Posted by M's Defender at 10/12/06 1:50 p.m.

P.S. another trade made by Bavasi where he got royally fleeced has resulted with the M's having nothing to show for the deal.
P Jesse Foppert who was part of the Winn trade with SF has been released and is no longer a M.Unfortunately Cruceta isn't a M anymore either as he was claimed by the Texas off waivers however it is better it happen now instead of waiting til ST and him without options he have been another Thornton either lose him or he takes up space on 25 man roster you'd rather have for a more productive player.

Posted by Tumbleweed at 10/12/06 3:06 p.m.

M's Defender, I wasn't the one who used the word "nasty" (see Zoinksscoob), but I do agree with you he does have some unhittable stuff...as for Winn, as much as I liked him I dont feel he ws worth much, he had a weak arm and had no power to speak of..Taking a gamble on guys like Foppert and Torrealba wasn't that bad..at that time our catching was horrible and those two had a small upside..at one time Foppert was a top prospect and Torrealba looked like he could be a stop gap at that time..plus we got rid of Winns contract, so bottome line I don't count that as a bad move on Bavasi's end..not every lump of cole turns into a diamond, especially in baseball!

Posted by M's Defender at 10/12/06 7:33 p.m.

Tumbleweed whenever an aquired player/players in a trade deal are released,DFAed,or traded without at least getting good enough to be given at least a Sept look by the parent club I feel that was a bad move on the part of the GM.Torrealba value as a stop gap went the way of the dinosaur the minute Johjima signed with the M's.I just wish he had gotten a better deal from the Rockies for him even if he needed to sweeten the pot with a low level prospect.
I don't expect every trade to be a diamond but at least show the value of a circbic zircon if get my meaning in at least making a team offer an A prospect for him.

Posted by theedge98074 at 10/14/06 11:04 a.m.

Has Lincoln ever said that his goal is to win the World Series? I am curious because the other day he used the phrase "Take this team to the promised land", to me that means "We need to win more so we continue to make cash". This ownership is only interested in making money. Now, they do a great job at it but they screwed the true fans over in 2001 when they failed to make deals. Maybe the right deals were not there but their excuse was they did not want to mortgage the future. Um, this is a sweat future folks. Improvement was made but a total philosophy switch is needed before we go back to the post season.

Posted by DavidGee24 at 10/16/06 2:38 p.m.

Well, how about this. Oakland, which with low payroll wins 90+ games every year, fires its manager (apparently pertaining to manager-player relationships), and meanwhile the M's are bringing back the man who we all know next year is going to steer the team into the iceberg by the end of April.

Posted by Sowulo at 10/17/06 8:29 a.m.

Pinella goes to the cubbies and says he wants A-Rod. Sounds like a good fit to me.

Posted by M's Defender at 10/17/06 2:50 p.m.

With the A's firing Macha heres a excellent opening for the FO to show the fans they're serious with all this hot seat and other talk.
FIRE Hargrove and hire Macha then entice Stolameyer to be bench coach this would be the first competent move they can make.

Posted by Sowulo at 10/17/06 9:24 p.m.

The thought crossed my mind.......

Posted by M's Defender at 10/18/06 3:03 p.m.

A added thought to my posting of 10/17/06 2:50 pm Sowulo.If Stolomeyer turned the bench coaching job.I 'd approach with Macha's hiring in my hand and ask Rohn to return and take the position.
I only said Mel Stolomeyer cause of the way Rohn was fired I felt he may not have accepted Sorry Dan our bad we need you line.

Posted by M's Defender at 10/18/06 3:04 p.m.

P.S. oops if Stolomeyer TURNED DOWN the benching job.

Posted by DavidGee24 at 10/18/06 3:22 p.m.

Well, you can't tell everybody Hargrove's coming back and then can him, that would be dirty. Baseball managers just don't make enough of a difference to do that, and we don't know how good a skipper Macha is. However, it would be pretty funny and groverindian would pull out every hair on his body.

Posted by M's Defender at 10/18/06 4:51 p.m.

DavidGee24 tell that to just about any manager other than Torre who ever managed the NYYs under Steinbrunner.
In '06 the A's did the opposite with Macha first they technically fired him and broke off any deal making with him and then did a complete 180 and rehired him so while it may not be entirely above board a move doing it the oppsite way with Grover it's not unheard of or without examples in baseball in one form or another.

Posted by Sowulo at 10/19/06 12:05 a.m.

it's Mel Stottlemyre.....

Posted by JJRacoon at 10/19/06 6:30 a.m.

Who is the only Mariner starting pitcher with at least 500 innings to never have a losing season? Randy Johnson? Jamie Moyer? Freddy Garcia? Mark Langston?
Nope none of those!! Just your very own free agent Gil Meche!! While his ERA has never been over impressive, he has somehow managed to stay in the games long enough to post winning seasons. He looks like a keeper to me but Piniero seems to have lost everything he had. Looking at hits per inning the last two years and he is not fooling anyone anymore. Maybe the bullpen is his place so he can give it all up for an inning at a time.
Just think we have plenty options in the bullpen so no sense paying him a lot of money. Thing that makes me reluctant to part with either is they are 28. Just now coming into that peak time. Did Meche find his problems? And is Pineiro still recovering SLOWLY from his injuries of three years ago?? Just seems that if we go all out for Matzusaka (sic) and a power hitting outfielder, we will have to accept both back as starters.

Posted by M's Defender at 10/19/06 2:58 p.m.

JJRacoon here's the thing that's not completely true Pinerio is gone non tendered just like Franklin last yr.
Tho he might fit as middle relief instead of Mateo he cost would be more than any benefit retaining him would be.He for all purposes be getting SP pay for bull pen ability and as you say there are other more viable less expensive (league minimum) options for the pen that make even Mateo trade bait.
I'm not completely againist resigning Meche but not at the salary he will command in FA market with so many teams hunting any pitching help.
Matsuzaka and that solid RFer with LHed power isn't prohibitive to sign more SP via FA namely Eaton for exsample.Also if the M's offer a good deal to the Giants the M's could aquire LHP Matt Cain and prospects.
example Sexson and Rivera with say Mateo and a low level prospect should do the trick.
I know why Sexson well the Giants need a 1stBman like him badly and with Broussard here with Lahair close this frees up money to sign another FA SP like Schmidt and even extra big bat as well.

Posted by Tumbleweed at 10/20/06 8:57 a.m.

Its only my opinion, but if you expect the Mariner's to rebuild why would you think the Mariners would trade Sexson for a pitcher like Cain? Sexson is a Gold Glove caliber 1B, who hit 34 HR and 107 RBI..You don't give away one of your biggest bats and MLB star for a 2 year (Cain) pitcher who hasn't even proven himself. He would be no better than and low-low level FA. Currently the Mariner's have one of the BEST in-fields in baseball and if you place liabilities at places like (Arod for Beltre and Broussard for Sexson)our errors whould reach record proportions! There are better ways to get pitching that don't cost the team any chance of winning. Like Matsuzaka and Schmidt as FA. A big bat to hit #3 (I don't think we can find a LH, so this will be a RH)...but to give up a backup catcher, a middle reliever and a stud 1B for an unproven .500 pitcher who hasn't even pitched in the AL....we can think of better scenerios than that! Remember how many young 2nd year Sp's we have had in the past that have flamed out!! M's Defender, you are one of the best contributors and knowledgable Mariner guys, but I can't buy the Sexon idea....Its like the papers saying Ichiro would want to go to the Cubs...1st the Mariners owner would never allow it, 2nd, the Cubs only have one player worth the caliber of Ichiro, and thats Carlos Zambrano..So we know that won't happen...but it is fun to read all these rumors....its going to be along winter!!!!

Posted by Tumbleweed at 10/20/06 9:11 a.m.

M's Defender, have you heard how much $$ the M's will have, to be honest I don't think they need to free up $$ buy jetisoning Sexson..If you subtract Meche ($3.7M), Moyer ($5.5M), Pineiro ($6.8M) and Guardado($6.25M) from the 2005 payroll, wow..plus the M's had been way under what they said their budget was..I wouldn't be suprised to find out its in the 40M range, plus any increases (maybe to 100M)...also the posting fee does not come from the salary budget..so they could even post 30-45M for the rights, spread it over a few years (I think they did that with Ichiro's). So even if they paid him 14M, Schmidt 11M and FA Bat 11M....maybe even get Jamie MOyer to play for a low price and be our #5 guy??? Just an idea..but the $$ figures are just guesses...we need someone to come up with the Players 2006 salaries, all I know is they had $87,959,833 as a team salary..So we need some number crunchers out therer to figure it out!

Posted by JJRacoon at 10/20/06 12:32 p.m.

It is time to sit pat with the majority of this roster and add a few pieces. To get rid of Sexson would definitely be a step backwards at this point. With Ichiro, Beltre, Ibanez, Sexson, Johjima, Betancourt, and Lopez as set all that is needed is to make the RF/LF/DH work with Ibanez, the new FA, and either Broussard/Snelling/minor leaguer. I dont know why everyone is so down on Mateo. He has been solid since becoming a Major Leaguer. Last year he had a death in the family (brother) and you dont come back from something like that emotionally real fast. Heck he ended up 9-4 so it wasnt like he lead to a bunch of losses. Anyway fix the starters and there is plenty bullpen people to compete next spring!!

Posted by M's Defender at 10/20/06 1:27 p.m.

The reasoning behind the suggestion it would take a player in the deal like Sexson to get Cain in trade is due to the high premimum SPs are going to have after the likes Zito,Schmidt,Matsuzaka and maybe one or two others are signed and settled.
Even Meche is going to command a contract that where he will be clearly overpaid no matter who signs him.The clubs in both leagues are in such dire straits any arm who can deliver even the minimum 5 innings for a starter is going to cash in.
That what a RP like Mateo will be valuable as trade bait to aquire that #3 power hitter you so desire to see even Washburn with his contract may attract some interest to get that very player.
So don't write off any deal where either/both are included to achieve that need especially if that player may still be young enough to have upside and play RF/LF as well example Crawford of the D-Rays (he just an example be nice tho).

Posted by Tumbleweed at 10/20/06 4:06 p.m.

But still, if we have the money and the will to sighn two top FA SP's, I would hold onto our best power hitter....I think Brousard alone would be equal to a unproven SP like Cain...Our young pitchers are evry bit as good as he has been so far, so why oevr pay for another Washburn pitcher who can only win 50% of the time...No one has to over pay if they don't over value...2 Sp's for 25M is what it will take, then I say pay away for the likes of Matsuzaka, Schmdit and Zito..its worth it just to keep them from those bum teams from the wrong coast! I am more than willing to part with J. Reed, A. Jones, J. Mateo, E. Perez or prospects if it ment a trade. I would even consider sending Ibanez away for a OF who had a respectable arm or a equal power for a DH...but unless someone blows us away with Zambrano for Ichiro, no stars should be traded as we are just a tweak away from winning the West and going to the playoffs again..This off year we have more money than we have ever had, so I think most people will be suprised on how much they pend and who we aquire..It was a total fluke that the A's did anything as their team has absolutely nothing except chemistry, and by firing their Manager they lsot that..so the West is wide open! Lets get the World Series over as no one cares and start spending some money!!!

Posted by marinersdude at 10/26/06 9:24 p.m.

What Have Mike Hargrove and Bill Bavasi done for the Mariners? Lets start off with some of the good moves... Signing Raul Ibanez & Kenji Johjima. The horrible moves... Signing of Rich Aurillia, Scott Spiezio, Pokey Reese, Carl Everett and the trades for Miguel Olivo, Yorvit Torrealba, Jesse Foppert and the contract extention of Julio Mateo. The Mariners finished in 90 win seasons 2001-2003 until they aquired Bob Melvin & Mike Hargrove then the record turned into a joke! Ichiro could be departing the Mariners soon because of Hargrove and Bavasi. The last few years they have been saying "Be patient and wait for our young talent" (A.K.A. Lose Badly) and fans have waited and still no playoff returns. Bavasi also thinks he can make the team better by picking up all of the "Veterans" (Old players) to help also. To make a long story short fire Hargrove & Bavasi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by Nebula36 at 5/12/07 6:55 p.m.

Mariners fans are COMPLETE whiners. It's like the Bobby Ayala thing all over again. Complain, complain, complain.