Posted by Jeff Jahn at 10/9/07 4:42 p.m.

Not news to us Portlanders of course... but as you point out, size matters very little (Seattle's art scene actually seems smaller and more cozy than Portland's). Instead of size it's a difference in attitude. We still have lots of ambitious people here, but it's just not cut throat ambition. Also, sarcasm isn't the defacto mode of discussion. The money in Seattle produces an endless supply of material for sarcasm.

Our billionares and developers jus't dont develop the same kind of civic scorn and everyone seems to appreciate artists in Portland.

Posted by Betsey at 10/9/07 8:20 p.m.

Oh, come on, Jeff! Exactly how is Seattle's art scene more cut throat? What kind of civic scorn are our billionaires developing? The kind at the Microsoft Art Collection? Or the kind at the Allen Foundation for the Arts? I'm just not sure what you're talking about. I'm not knocking Portland, I love it there, and I visit often - but I think you are making things up about Seattle.

Posted by demetre at 10/9/07 8:52 p.m.

Sarcasm in Seattle? What sarcasm? Now I'm really confused. Can anyone help me out here?

Posted by unregistered user at 10/9/07 9:04 p.m.

In the spirit of neighborliness, Portland is willing to give Jeff Jahn to Seattle. As you can see, he comes preloaded with expertise.

www.comedycentral.com/motherload/index.j
html?ml_video=72347

Posted by Regina Hackett at 10/9/07 10:14 p.m.

While I hesitate to speak for Jeff Jahn, what I think he was trying to say was maybe that Portland is known for the way its artists support each other. Acceptance, not challenge, which has turned into its own kind of rigor. I don't think Seattle is known for its sarcasm, however. The two cities aren't opposites, and we're just a bullet train away from having lunch with each other.

Posted by m. at 10/10/07 6:38 p.m.

what a baseless, counterproductive, hackneyed conversation. and yet here we are being subjected to it once again. pity. it started out as such an interesting post...

Posted by unregistered user at 10/10/07 10:26 p.m.

The article and the post were interesting until they left Haynes' vision and T.S. Eliot's advice for the narrow path of concrete clarity. It would be surprising if people didn't respond negatively to lazy interpretation.

If we can celebrate Dylan's enigmatic character, surely we can do the same for the cities in which we live, yes?

As an observation, this Portlander finds the newspaper/online forums about art in Seattle far superior to what we have here in Portland. There are fantastic, candid discussions about art here, but they happen face to face.

Posted by m. at 10/11/07 10:23 a.m.

i hate to be the one to point this out to you unregistered user #57084, but once you start using phrases like "far superior" with regard to comparing things in the two cities in the latter part of your post you are skipping down the same "narrow path" you are censuring up front. like the original post, it all starts out well enough...

Posted by Jeff Jahn at 10/11/07 10:39 a.m.

Betsey, I wasnt suggesting Portland is less cut throat ... just that it isn't cut throat in Portland (Seattle does feel like it is more sorted into various camps though, since our patron base is less developed there is more of a wide-open gold rush feel here).

I remember the Modern Painters talk at Elliot Bay books way back in 2001 or 2002 with Lisa Corrin and Liz Brown + an assoiate editor. Everyone talked about Seattle's potential and great points were made... then someone made a sarcastic comment about money and the room burst out in what I considered to be healthy but slightly dark-tinged laughter.

Seattle "is" sarcastic (as these posts point out) and it's a strength as much as a weakness... in the same way that Portland's inclusive neighborly-ness is an empowering asset and weakness (that gives license to dippy efforts).

Regina... thanks you did a good job sticking up for me, that was my basic point (which I made to back up your point). It's true Seattle and Portland are more alike than dissimilar.

Truth is I love visiting Seattle (I'm going to LA, SF and Sandiego [for Robert Irwin] next though. I never see it as Portland vs Seattle and Im comitted to drawing Portlnd Vancouver (bc) and Seattle closer (Organism's last show had Organism's last show had Weppler & Mahovsky). I feel like it's a superhero cliche but if we combine our strengths and natural artistic curiosity about one another it will be incredibly hard to ignore.

It's already well under way.

Posted by m. at 10/11/07 1:48 p.m.

we could take jim's post either way, i guess, but it seems to me that betsey, regina, and myself are all shooting pretty straight in our posts here, jj.

the absolute standout sarcastic post, in fact, seems to come from unregistered user #56796, whom i can only surmise to be from portland since they are presuming to speak on behalf of the entire city.

that said, sarcastic people can be found everywhere. one burst of (highly subjective) "slightly dark-tinged laughter" does not a city-wide characteristic make.

i also think it's more obvious than you think that you are furiously backpedaling away from the implications made by your initial statement about ambition, and that you do, in fact, historically take a portland vs. seattle stance on various issues both verbally and in writing on a semi-regular basis. following are a few further examples to punctuate the ones above:

"Tyler has the scoop on the Aqua Art Miami art fair this year...which was originally patterned on Portland's Affair at the Jupiter Hotel fair. Now it looks Aqua is upgrading and I sense an art fair arms race...Nice Dirk, you found a way to make Miami more competitive... sheesh..."
-Posted by Jeff Jahn on PORT, April 26, 2007

"Portland no longer has any kind of art scene inferiority complex to Seattle, actually their scene is sleepy compared to us..."
-Posted by Jeff Jahn on PORT, April 16, 2007

"Portland has really changed its attitude in comparison to Seattle..."
-Posted by Jeff Jahn on PORT, October 09, 2005

if that's the way you and various other critics find is a useful way to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of our cities, that's one way to go about it, i guess.

plenty of people already know it's not a tactic i'm a fan of as i think it burns more bridges than it builds, but hey, i'm not here to tell you what school of criticism to subscribe to.

what i am here to tell you—-as the straight shooter that i am--is that i don't appreciate you trying to take the audience for a ride.

if you're going to take the comparison tactic, at least back your statements up.

or retract them.

there's no need to pretend we're not clever enough to suss out what you're actually saying or that we can't remember what was said, especially within the context of a single post.

i love ya, jj, but this chain of hoopla is above us all, including you.

Posted by unregistered user at 10/11/07 6:02 p.m.

m,

Thanks for pointing it out, even though you hated to be the one to do it.

I was obviously mistaken to think that 'this Portlander' was enough of a qualifier to emphasize my statement as a matter of my opinion, and not a statement of fact. I was not 'presuming to speak on behalf of the entire city'. Is it possible that you confused my sentence with Jahn's opener 'Not news to us Portlanders of course...'?

I read Regina's comments about Seattle and Portland as a 'grass is greener' commentary, and offered my personal opinion as 'this Portlander' about art writing and online forums. It was meant as a compliment, and to imply that 'the grass is greener' can be applied to both cities.

This thread has left me yearning to follow Alec Soth into the Mystical Moist Night Air.

unregistered user #56796

Posted by unregistered user at 10/11/07 6:44 p.m.

m.

oops, wrong unregistered user!

yours,
unregistered user 57084 & unregistered user 57265, not to be confused with unregistered user 56796 (the sarcastic one).

Posted by m. at 10/11/07 6:53 p.m.

unregistered users of all numbers:

thanks for the grins!!

seriously. no sarcasm intended whatsoever.

enjoy whatever mmna you can manage to find,

m.

Posted by unregistered user at 10/11/07 7:36 p.m.

Now that was a quick detour from the narrow path of concrete clarity!

Posted by Jeff Jahn at 10/12/07 11:00 a.m.

m.

I love yah, but you are dead wrong and misrepresent me. In short I'm not backpedalling, just trying to clarify my stance lest people misread it as you have. You may be a straight shooter but you are aiming at a reflection in one of your own subjective mirrors.

That post about Aqua and the affair wasn't referring to an art fair arms race between Piortland's fair and Auqa... that is silly. I was speakng of the very competitive atmosphere in Miami amongst all the art fairs there. By upgrading Aqua to two spaces it is a bit of a space oriented arms race.

As for your other selective pull quotes note that I critique everything and by highlighting changes in attitude and differences Im hardly putting Seattle down. Seattle simply hasnt changed as much as Portland has in the last 10 years in its relationship to its arts scene. frankly how could it, Portland was filling a massive vaccum. Get over it, being a little competitive is a good thing.

Also, my opinion of Seattle's sarcasm runs deep and not just from 1 meeting, that was just a salient example. Here are 2 more: I remember people complaining that the Wright's dont have a good eye (which is just utterly untrue) and there was a lot of sarcasm about the Seattle Central Libray (which is a major triumph).

In short, stop being so touchy and understand that criticism is a form of respect, it's also a way to identify the landscape and open up discussion. Obviously Im a straight shooter too, my style is different though and I take the kid gloves off (as Regina and Jen Graves do as well). Also let me restate that I like Seattle's well developed sarcasm (putting a ball and chain on SAM's hammering man).

If I like something I tend to challenge it critically... please make a note to include Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, New York and LA in my like "a lot" list when you try to represent my views next time.

Posted by m. at 10/12/07 1:22 p.m.

i'm not feeling touchy, jj. i'm just feeling a bit feisty as--for a number of reasons related to both of us--i'd like to see you stand by what you say instead of backpedaling, which no amount of further backpedaling will convince me you're not doing here.

but i am glad to see you bring up the subject of your kid gloves. keep taking those kid gloves off when you feel the need. that's what you're known for...

i'm just additionally asking that you then stand by taking them off instead of putting them back on and pretending they never came off.

if betsey or me or anybody else disagrees with the way you (or regina or jen or critics in general) go about your business every now and then, what the hay. nobody's going to please everybody all the time--or even a majority of the time--unless they're nothing but a wishy-washy mealy mouth fit only for the zombie-zoned masses.

especially when the subject in question is criticism...

and whatever our differences regarding how we think the strengths and weaknesses of our cities are best illuminated, certainly we can agree that nobody wants a couple of art scenes where everybody agrees on everything.

so i say, go on with your bad self, but remember to back up your bad self, too...

your soapbox is unique and i don't like to see it undermined even when i disagree with whatcha say on top of it.

Posted by m. at 10/12/07 1:28 p.m.

p.s. i was editing for space above, but here's the full aqua quote to refresh your memory that you were indeed talking about space with regard to the northwest and not miami:

"Tyler has the scoop on the Aqua Art Miami art fair this year. It's the fair where one has traditionally found the most Portland and Seattle galleries and in general I always liked the feel, which was originally patterned on Portland's Affair at the Jupiter Hotel fair.

Now it looks Aqua is upgrading and I sense an art fair arms race, or is it a space race? It is true we here in the Northwest have a thing about space.

Nice Dirk, you found a way to make Miami more competitive... sheesh..."

-Posted by Jeff Jahn on PORT, April 26, 2007

Posted by m. at 10/12/07 1:33 p.m.

p.p.s. oops. posted that too fast. of course you are talking about miami. but in relation to aqua. and specifically about how seattle and portland and the northwest and jupiter and aqua relate via space. and race. and so forth. anyway. i think the quote speaks for itself, but lest i myself be misunderstood...

Posted by Jeff Jahn at 10/12/07 6:47 p.m.

Occam's razor my dear..

your version is that Im backpedalsing over backpedalling over some supposed secret agenda

my version : you misunderstand

You still dont get it.... That quote is all about Aqua adding more competition to an already crowded field in Miami... the mention of the Affair is simply giving some backstory not comparing Aqua and the affair. The original Aqua was patterened on the Affair... no big deal. I fail to see how commenting that Aqua is upping the stakes in a miami art fair space race is slighting Seattle or Aqua in any way or building up the affair for some phantom agenda. I was simply impressed that anyone could figure out how to make miami more competitive than it already was, you are assuming sarcasm but it's more like wonder.

Your feist is misplaced

Posted by m. at 10/13/07 8:40 p.m.

for this last flurry of statements to be true i would have to believe that miami was not incredibly competitive for space far prior to aqua's arrival on the scene, which both the crush for entry into the formal fair as well as the dizzying number of satellite fairs—-all predating aqua altogether, let alone it's expansion--make it hard for me to conclude that the "art fair arms race" you are talking about is solely the one in miami, as the jupiter/aqua thing fits the time frame of your post more appropriately...

however, that quote is really an incidental. a periphery. nonessential. especially since you concede the other two quotes mentioned and there are plenty more to mine from the trenches...

on a similar note, i find that the original issue of debate, too, has also more or less become obsolete, though do note that i was not originally worried about you "putting seattle down" but just at odds with any tactic that seeks to elevate one thing at the expense of another, whether it be cities or art or people or whatever--especially if the claims are not factually quantifiable.

if you were doing the same with some quality of seattle over one in portland in the same manner i would have had the same reaction.

but anyway. that's all mud underfoot...

where we've (or i've, anyway) ended up--if you get to the heart of my last postings--is just a simple request for consistency, if only within the same thread. backing sweeping statements up with factual sources would be great too, but hey, this is the blogosphere, and that's not my main request...

anyhow, maybe i'm not getting all the words and examples as bang-on as i'd like to as i'm a little distracted by other things right now while also trying to engage in this conversation, but just consider...

this is you in this thread:

"I never see it as Portland vs Seattle..."

and this is you again further down in this thread (still talking about pdx/sea):

"Get over it, being a little competitive is a good thing."

just think about it a bit is all i'm asking as it's a theme i've seen played out in your dialogue often enough and long enough to mention it despite the fact that you've made quite a reputation, as you say taking the "kid gloves" off and going toe to toe...

but hey, if what i'm pointing out isn't useful...whatever. i'll buy you a drink or something if clarifying your stance and sticking by it really doesn't improve your (already noteworthy) game.